Author Topic: Bombing of the palaces  (Read 28929 times)

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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2012, 07:15:29 PM »
Paul Gilbert just listed a new book in Russian and English on this very topic:

 Palaces Destroyed: Nazi Occupation of Leningrad Region 1941-1944

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/grb/rom289.html

This photo book is a requiem for the pre-war palaces of Peterhof, Tsarskoye Selo, Pavlovsk and Gatchina. A requiem recorded on German film. Even soldiers of the Wehrmacht were charmed by the beauty of the palaces and took pictures of their life and destruction. The world famous palaces were beautiful even as they were engulfed in fire.
This photo book is a tribute to all the museum workers from Peterhof, Pushkin, Pavlovsk and Gatchina - all those people who managed to preserve bits and pieces of prewar art heritage for the whole world.

Furthermore, this photo book is a tribute to all the restoration workers who brought back to life the palaces around Saint-Petersburg - for the whole world to enjoy. This photo book is a reminder about the nature of war. A reminder to the whole world.

Palaces covered in this book include:

PETERHOF: Grand Palace, Imperial Stables, the Imperial train, Znamenka

TSARSKOYE SELO: Catherine Palace, Alexander Palace

PAVLOVSK and GATCHINA

Text is in Russian and English.
инок Николай

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2012, 08:38:01 PM »
However, neither the Union nor the Confederats delibertely destroyed historical buildings.

I grew up in Macon, Georgia where Sherman's March to the Sea is still remembered as the deliberate destruction not only of the cotton economy of that region but of everything that represented the southern cultural heritage, such as it was.  In fact, burned-out southerners thought of Sherman pretty much what Leningraders thought of Hitler.  Spend an evening on a porch in a rocking chair with them.  You'll see what I mean.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2012, 10:13:20 PM »
However, neither the Union nor the Confederats delibertely destroyed historical buildings.

I grew up in Macon, Georgia where Sherman's March to the Sea is still remembered as the deliberate destruction not only of the cotton economy of that region but of everything that represented the southern cultural heritage, such as it was.  In fact, burned-out southerners thought of Sherman pretty much what Leningraders thought of Hitler.  Spend an evening on a porch in a rocking chair with them.  You'll see what I mean.


Certainly...and not to defend Sherman's actions but the counter argument that could be made was that the south succeeded from the union and fired the shots that began the Civil War. This has to differ from Russian view of the foreigner Hitler who started the Second World War.

Sherman's "scorched earth" campaign is easy to criticize, but interestingly his success on the battlefield was one of the reasons why Lincoln got reelected. A critical turning point in American history.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2012, 06:43:00 AM »
Don't get me wrong.  I have never wished that the south won the Civil War, and I have always supported the policies -- both military and political -- that won it.

I was just pointing out that few wars have been conducted without some form of outrages conducted against the culture of the embattled parties.  The Persians destroyed Athens in 480 B.C.E. after winning the war.  The Macedonians destroyed Persepolis, including its fabled royal palace, in 330 B.C.E. after winning the war.  The Romans destroyed Carthage in 146 B.C.E. after winning the war.  Rome was sacked in 390 B.C.E. by the Gauls, in 410 by the Visigoths, in 455 by the Vandals, in 546 by the Ostrogoths, in 846 by the Arabs, in 1084 by the Normans, and in 1527 by Charles V.  The British burned the White House and the U. S. Capitol in 1814.  The 19th Dynasty of Egypt destroyed Amarna and its royal palaces after Akhenaten was dead.  Cortes destroyed Tenochititlan and its magnificent assemblage of royal architecture in 1521 and built Mexico City on top of the ruins.  Ad nauseum . . . .

German behavior in Russia was despicable.  But it was hardly unique.  Or even rare.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2012, 08:32:54 AM »
May we please return to the TOPIC at hand, as interesting as a discussion of the US Civil War and Berlin may be? Thank you.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2012, 10:39:51 AM »
The opening sentence of this thread contained these words:  "It is beyond my comprehension as to why would people bomb history and heritage!"  This did not suggest to me that the thread was restricted to specific damage of one palace or another.  It would seem that the question of why one belligerent in a war would destroy the culturally-significant buildings of another belligerent cannot be fully examined without some discussion about such conduct throughout history.  There was, after all, nothing unique about what the Germans did in Russia.

Since this thread started over eight years ago, it had had exactly 15 posts, most more than a year old.  Since yesterday it has been read 368 times and has picked up 19 new posts.

But I will stop posting on it, as it was perhaps best left defunct.

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2012, 10:44:22 AM »
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to kill the conversation, I just thought it should pertain more to the Russian Palaces and less to the Civil War. Carry on as you wish then.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2012, 11:56:56 AM »
Actually, I agree it's time to get the discussion back more specifically to the Russian palaces.  However, I thought the digression was useful because if one approaches the question of why did the Germans destroy the Russian palaces from the perspective of a belief that only the Germans have ever done such a thing or that the German destructive acts were somehow more heinous than other similar acts by other belligerents, one will arrive at an answer that is wrong, at least in part.

Different conquerors have different agendas.  Cyrus the Great and Alexander the Great wanted to control as much of the earth's surface and peoples as possible, but they did not strive to elevate any one culture or religion over another into the bargain.  Napoleon wanted to impose French power on all of Europe, but it was his personal vision of French power, as his Continental System was as foreign to French tradition as it was to other European traditions.  The colonial powers wanted to turn the less-developed world into their cash cows with as little bother with other things as possible.

But Hitler was in that class of conquerors that arrive on the border with an ideological brew on the boil.  Eastern Europe was not to be conquered for the service of Germany or even for its populations to be integrated into German culture and the German economy.  It was conquered to be cleared out to make room for the expansion of the pure Aryan race and its equally-fictitious and quickly-fabricated culture.  While some populations -- the Jews being only the most infamous example -- were literally to be eradicated, other populations were too vast and entrenched, so their destructions were to be accomplished more through symbolic means than physical.  And with that came the deliberate destruction of their cultural heritages.

I earlier mentioned Hitler's plans to turn Berlin into Germania.  To understand what Hitler was really about, one has to understand that it was not German culture he was trying to impose, with its odd mix of militarism and liberalism, straight-laced propriety and cabaret excesses, Lutheranism and Catholicism.  It was a bizarre Nazi fantasy of Aryan culture that cherry-picked elements of German culture, poured in a few Nordic fairy tales, stirred in a few noisy Wagnerian operas, and grossly distorted some borrowings from German philosophers whose undistorted philosophies were frightening enough.

To understand what Hitler did to Russian palaces, once must remember that Hitler put a gun to his head, finally convinced that even Germans had proved themselves undeserving of the glories he strove to bestow on them and that the Fatherland itself had earned its own consignment to flames.

To me, this was the essence of what drove the German destruction in the St. Petersburg area.  But, even at this extreme, Hitler was not unique.  Eradication, not integration, of native populations and culture was the first order of business of the western European conquerors in the first century of their expansion into the New World.  And, in only a slightly less brutal degree, it is what Russia itself had been doing for centuries with the Jewish populations it absorbed as it expanded its borders beyond old Muscovy.  The Pales of Settlement, pogroms, the May Laws . . . the impetus to cultural eradication of rival tribes (to use an anthropological term) is a universal element of human nature that is kept in check only by sophisticated social organization and that pops right back to the surface when things such as war stress that organization.

At least we can be grateful that the Russians have proved adept at rebuilding their magnificent palaces.


Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2012, 02:35:50 PM »
I'm not sure that the peoples conquered by either Cyrus or Alexander would have agreed that there wasn't an agenda, but that's a minor quibble.I am thinking of the destruction of the Buddhas by the Taliban in Afghanistan, as well as that which the Khmer Rouge wreaked upon their own cultural heritage as Cambodians. Every time I see footage of the bombing of Monte Cassino by the Americans in 1944, I wince. And yes, kudos to the Russians for bringing their historical buildings back. And by the way, it doesn't have to be destruction through war that irritates: I know a lot of people still in mourning because of the destruction of the original Penn Station.
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2012, 04:21:35 PM »
I didn't quite say that neither Cyrus nor Alexander had an agenda.  They definitely had the Who-Better-Than-I-to-Rule-the-Known-World itch accompanied by the It's-Tuesday-There's-Asia-Minor doldrums.  But they did show respect to the cultures and religions of the peoples they subjugated.

But, again, back to Russia.  What was Russification if not an attempt to supplant native cultures with a supposedly-superior culture?  Remember the 1880's, when Alexander III banned the use of Polish in the schools and offices of Poland, when research into and the teaching of Polish history was banned, and when instruction in Catholic doctrine was banned?

There are all kinds of ways to demean a people and attack their culture.  Burning pretty buildings is but one.

As I said, I'm very glad the Russians are adept at recreating their glorious imperial structures.  But they have been perpetrators as well as victims of cultural warfare.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 04:30:48 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline TimM

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2012, 05:52:37 AM »
Quote
I'm very glad the Russians are adept at recreating their glorious imperial structures

Me too.  I'm sure the tourist dollars will give the Russian economy a much needed boost.
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Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2013, 07:09:36 PM »
If you have any questions on German units and graves around one of the palaces you might want to make a posting on the axis history forum. There is most lickly someone at this site who can most likely help you with some information. If there are SS graves in this area they may belong to men of the 4th SS division which I believe did fight in this area. Also note there is I think a multi volume unit history of this division and this unit was active in what the germans refered to as "anti-Bandit" operations.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2013, 06:53:04 PM »
In doing some more research besides the 4th SS Polizi division , the 2nd SS Infantry Brigade, several SS foriegn SS legions, and a company of the 1st SS LAH division did serve in the Leningrad area.

The Gatchina Palace/Krasnogvardeisk area was a home base for a number of Luftwaffe units during WW II including I/JG 54 or 1st group/ Jagdgeswader fighter wing 54 as well as a number of bomber and dive bomber units.

From what I have read over the main reason it is nearly impossible to find a WW II German cemetry in Russia is because during and right after WW II/GPW the Russians bulldozed every one they could find.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2013, 08:12:50 PM »
The SS graves in the picture most likely were from men of the 4th SS Polizei division. This is from the book "In Good Faith" friedrich Hussmann, a history of this unit. In September 1941 this unit helped capture Krasswogwards (German spelling)/Gatchina and Pushkin/Tsarskoe selo and held the front just north of pushkin until February 1942. The book contains a number of german WW II battle maps of this area. they have pushkin close to the front like 500 meters during this time and i believe it remained this way until january 1944. the book mentions 60 of the units men being buried at Pushkin. The graves in the picture look like a similiar picture in this book. the little plaque on them has the deceased rank name, unit date of birth and death. the book "Leningrad" Anna Reid has a little on pushkin in it. Which includes the rounding up and killing of the areas jews. I don't think any of the other SS units mentioned held this sector of the line. so it looks like this unit most likely helped round up and possibly helped shoot the jews with the help of the einzatgruppen. i hope this of some use.

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Re: Bombing of the palaces
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2013, 02:44:26 PM »
Although the bombing of the Leningrad area palaces was horrific, one wonders why it wasn't worse. As noted , Pavlovsk, Gatchina, and the Tsarskoe Selo  palaces were not bombed nor demolished by ground troops. German planes controlled the skies overhead  well enough to have destroyed them, yet didn't. Yes, they would have high priority targets in Red Army positions, but   demoralizing the enemy  by shattering his national cultural heritage would also pay dividends beyond the militarily strategic.

And leveling these palaces as they retreated in 1944 would seem to have been hard for the German High Command to resist. They still had enough firepower to turn the Catherine Palace to rubble for example.

Without resorting to too much  counterintuitive  doublethink, I think it may be that even high level Wehrmacht officers (or especially, old school officers in the Junker tradition) might  simply still have valued and admired these beautiful structures. Their counterparts in Paris and Rome largely  spared the treasures of those beautiful cities while still carrying out fairly effective withdrawals.

They weren't barbarians, after all. (Where's the irony/sarcasm  icon when you need it?)