Henrietta Maria, Queen of the Cavaliers

[Prince_Lieven]

Well, Alison Plowden in 'Stuart Princesses' says it was Minette . . . perhaps that is why Sophia was so flattered!

[bell_the_cat]

Well, Alison Plowden in 'Stuart Princesses' says it was Minette . . . perhaps that is why Sophia was so flattered!

Palatine's version sounds more likely to me!

[Prince_Lieven]

What is different about palatine's version?  

[bell_the_cat]

Palatine says the comparison was made when Sophia met Henrietta and Mary in 1642 (before Minette was born).

[Prince_Lieven]

Palatine says the comparison was made when Sophia met Henrietta and Mary in 1642 (before Minette was born).

Oh, yes!    Perhaps I am wrong then! Hmm . . .  Mary was certainly considered a beauty - even La Grand Mademoiselle raved over her at the French court.

[palatine]

Sophia never met Minette.  The only time Sophia spent with Henrietta Maria was in 1642-3 at The Hague; Minette was not born until 1644.

Mary did make a hit at the French court when she visited.  La Grande Mademoiselle, one of the greatest heiresses in France, was particularly impressed with Mary's jewelry.  

[Prince_Lieven]

Yep, I posted the quote from La Grand Mademoiselle somewhere else, I'll go dig it out.  

[Prince_Lieven]

Here it is:

The Princess of Orange wore the most beautiful diamond earrings I ever beheld: very fine with pearl clasps and a large diamond bracelet with rings of the same kind .

[Modena]

I can see why Henrietta has her admirers, and its not just the sympathetic biographies.  Henrietta had a lot of will and determination.  She did have a bad upbringing and poor education to overcome.  She also had a lot of charm.  

I agree that Carola Oman does tend to glorify and whitewash her subjects a bit, but I believe her books are too valuable to be dismissed for that somewhat common failing of biographers.  For those who like Henrietta, you should definitely try to read Oman's biography of her.

All of this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

I have one of her books, but I don't get that impression.  

[palatine]

Modena, I have read two of Oman's biographies, those of Henrietta Maria and Elizabeth of Bohemia.  In my opinion, Oman ignores and minimizes failures and mistakes of both of her subjects to make them look better.  

For example, in her biography of Henrietta, Oman spends just a few pages on Henrietta's political activities during 1643-4, and downplays her actions.  During that time, Henrietta conspired with some of the courtiers to remove Prince Rupert, Charles's best general, from his command, since he failed to suck up to her.  Henrietta wasted time negotiating with the Pope and with other Catholic foreign powers who had shown all too clearly that they were not interested in helping her or her husband.  She discouraged Charles from listening to warnings from the Marquis of Montrose that the Scottish army was negotiating with Parliament and would soon be on the move.  She demanded that Charles make an incompetent schemer, Lord Digby, his Secretary of State.  And so forth and so on....

Oman, who goes into great detail about other times in Henrietta's life, glibly sums Henrietta's actions during the Civil War up, leaving most of her monkey business out.  Oman then moves forward to the birth of Minette and Henrietta's flight to France, dwelling long and lovingly on the various illnesses Henrietta suffered from in 1644-5.  

Prince Lieven, not everyone thought Mary of Orange was good-looking.  Elizabeth of Bohemia's granddaughter Liselotte paid a call on Mary with her grandmother while on a visit to The Hague as child.  On her arrival at Mary's court, Liselotte asked a little boy who the woman with the "furious nose" was.  The boy, the future William III, told her that it was his mother, Mary of Orange; far from being offended, he thought Liselotte was pretty funny.  William and Liselotte had a good time playing together.  When told that it was time to go, Liselotte rushed up to Mary, yanked on her dress, bobbed a curtsey, and followed her grandmother out, imitating the Winter Queen's walk and taking precedence over Mary.  Liselotte's Aunt Sophia, who had boycotted the call, laughed when she heard about this and told Liselotte that she had revenged the family on "that haughty princess."

[bell_the_cat]

Liselotte's Aunt Sophia, who had boycotted the call, laughed when she heard about this and told Liselotte that she had revenged the family on "that haughty princess."

All of this is just my opinion and feel free to disagree.  

Wasn't Mary the "bread winner" for the entire family at this point? Liselotte in later life loved to reminisce about the time she spent with her grandmother, which for the grown ups must have been pretty stressful, but for a child must have seemed a very happy time. Liselotte must have been only six or seven years old.

[palatine]

Mary financially supported her brothers during the exile.  I don't think Mary financially supported Henrietta Maria or Minette, who had pensions from Louis XIV, but she may have given them gifts of money at times.  

After the Restoration, Mary went to England to get the money the family owed her repaid, but Charles II and the rest kept stalling.  Mary died within a few months of her arrival, and her family helped themselves to the jewelry she'd brought with her, including heirlooms that belonged to her son William.  Oman claims that Henrietta Maria took some of Mary's jewels for safekeeping, but there is no evidence that the jewelry was ever returned to William, even after Henrietta's death.

Henrietta Maria did not have any kind of relationship with William, although Mary's will made her one of his guardians, along with Charles II.  Henrietta looked down on the House of Orange, which might be why she took so little interest in her grandson.  

 

[Prince_Lieven]

Prince Lieven, not everyone thought Mary of Orange was good-looking.  Elizabeth of Bohemia's granddaughter Liselotte paid a call on Mary with her grandmother while on a visit to The Hague as child.  On her arrival at Mary's court, Liselotte asked a little boy who the woman with the "furious nose" was.  The boy, the future William III, told her that it was his mother, Mary of Orange; far from being offended, he thought Liselotte was pretty funny.  William and Liselotte had a good time playing together.  When told that it was time to go, Liselotte rushed up to Mary, yanked on her dress, bobbed a curtsey, and followed her grandmother out, imitating the Winter Queen's walk and taking precedence over Mary.  Liselotte's Aunt Sophia, who had boycotted the call, laughed when she heard about this and told Liselotte that she had revenged the family on "that haughty princess."

All of this is just my opinion and feel free to disagree.  

Was it Liselotte who told this story?

[palatine]

Liselotte wrote about the incident to Caroline, Princess of Wales on November 26, 1720.  The full text of her letter is available in Maria Kroll's "Letters from Liselotte."

(edited by author due to concerns about copyright)

[Prince_Lieven]

 While Mary enjoyed the company of her aunt Elizabeth, I have no doubt that Mary snubbed her Palatine cousins.

That's a bit of a lofty statement, don't you think!