Author Topic: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility  (Read 99392 times)

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Offline umigon

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2006, 03:38:24 AM »
As far as I know, there was no STRICT and OFFICIALLY ESTABLISHED dynastic French law against morganatic marriages (but I may very well be wrong), so Alfonso of Cádiz's marriage to Carmen Martínez-Bordiú y Franco (who by the way is the daughter of a Spanish earl and a Spanish duchess...) would not ban Luis Alfonso from the Succession to the throne of France.


I agree with you on the Orleanist legacy, although I wouldn't say that Louis Philippe usurped the throne. But that's just a matter of opinion.


We don't know if Isabel's children were or not fathered by King Francisco, but, until a DNA test is done on her children's rests, we will never know, so we shouldn't afirm something of which we are not sure!
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2006, 01:50:06 PM »
Quote
The Bourbon dynasty, when they actually sat on the French throne, did not recognize morganatic unions ( the few that actually existed) and offspring of such were barred from inheriting the crown.  Examples of this are the  children of Louis XIV and Madame de Maintenon.  He married her, legitimized his children by her, and they were members of the royal family---but at no time were they in line for the French throne.  

Also, Luis Alphonso's marriage may be "noble" but it is not "royal", and his father's marriage was definitely not royal, either.   Of course, I'm approaching this from an 18th and 19th century persective, when the definition of "royalty" meant more than it does today.

The issue of Isabella II really belongs under "Spanish Royals", but the fact remains that she was known to have many lovers amongst her bodyguards, etc, and her cousin/husband had to be bribed to return to her side when she was expecting her first child in order to avoid scandal.   "Fanny", according to all existing documentation, letters, and memoirs of the time, was not the father of her children.



Louis had children by Mme de Montespan, but he never married her. He did marry Mme de Maintenon (in "secret"), but had no children with her. I'm not sure if these secret marriages were the same as morganatic marriages in the German speaking world - in any case none of them produced children.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
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Offline frohsdorf

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2006, 01:57:22 PM »
Yes, you're correct about Montespan.   I do know that Louis XIV managed to "legitimize" his children by Montespan, although they were never married.  My knowledge and interest in French history really begins with the birth of Louis XVI in 1754 and ends with the death of the Comte de Chambord in 1883, so this period is before my time.

At any rate,  this thread pertains to the current claimants to the French throne, none of whom will ever be crowned, so it's all just fodder for a lively discussion---nothing more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frohsdorf »

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2006, 12:52:42 AM »
Quote
Yes, you're correct about Montespan.   I do know that Louis XIV managed to "legitimize" his children by Montespan, although they were never married.  My knowledge and interest in French history really begins with the birth of Louis XVI in 1754 and ends with the death of the Comte de Chambord in 1883, so this period is before my time.

At any rate,  this thread pertains to the current claimants to the French throne, none of whom will ever be crowned, so it's all just fodder for a lively discussion---nothing more.


;D Sorry to be so pedantic!

I agree with your last paragraph. I was reading only yesterday about the 10th anniversary of the death of the last king Francois, and his differences of opinion with Madame (Segolène) Royale!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Paul

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2006, 10:43:05 AM »
The Orleanist claim seems to be the most straight-forward, when you factor in renunciation clauses in treaties and such.

If memory serves, the Orleans family had a moderately good chance of restoration after WWII.
I read somewhere that General DeGaulle considered the idea of a constitutional monarchy. He even entered into talks with the head of the family.

I wish that I could remember where I'd read this. Does anyone know aything about a near miss with an Orleans restoration?

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Offline Paul

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2006, 11:11:06 AM »
Does anyone know if the supporters of the Bonaparte family maintain a website? If so, what is the URL, please?

The only real possession you'll ever have is your character.
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Offline carl fraley

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2006, 04:58:37 PM »
When Alfonso's XIII son renouced his rights to the spanish throne even his mother refused to accept his change of heart later.   For example in Brazil when the Princess Regent Isabel's child tried to change his renunciation years later , she would not accept it.

I may be wrong but My view is this.  When King Louis XIV Grandson Phillip acceded the spanish throne he renounced his and all of his descendants rights to the throne of France forever.  Wasn't this a MAJOR part of the Treaty when Phillip acceded to the throne of Spain?  So With 2 renunciations spanning over 400 years, the Duc De Anjou's claims would not be legal now would they?

Offline britt.25

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2006, 04:38:18 AM »
I don´t think that it will ever happen, but I think Charles Napoleon would be a good president for his people. He is second deputy major at Ajaccio and has a lot of other tasks, so he maybe will never be a candidate for an election, but he would never try to establish an empire! His opinions are rather left and a bit socialistic...but for me very positive. He knows about his heritage concerning beeing a chief of the Bonaparte family, but he does not want to represent a "Napoleon"  of our age, he is no Bonapartists at all in this sense. Rather the contrary: When he was running for his elections at Ajaccio, the Bonapartists and the right and conservative people were the onces , who had the critic voices!! His views are modern and very open. I like his personality a lot and this man in general impresses me a lot, I must say. I have read that he also wants to become a member of the European parliament. There are a lot of interesting interviews about him in the internet. Pictures of his family are hardly to find. I had a short contact to him, but it broke. I think he is too busy....
If I was a french man I would support any election of him! ::) ;)
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Offline frimousse

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2006, 05:41:28 PM »
Prince Henry ( now Comte de Paris) with his 1st wife born Princess Marie-Thérèse of Württemberg and their children Princess Marie (now Princess Gundakar of Liechenstein) John (  Prince Jean of France, Duke of Vendôme) and Prince Eudes.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frimousse »

Offline frimousse

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2006, 05:49:41 PM »
Photography of Prince Jean of France, Duke of Vendôme.
See his website:
http://www.gensdefrance.com




Offline frimousse

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2006, 07:04:36 PM »
Photography from Point de Vue magazine January 2006

Prince Eudes of France, Duke of Angoulême, his wife born Marie-Liesse de Rohan-Chabot (daughter of Count Louis-Mériadec de Rohan-Chabot and Princess Isabelle de Bauffremont-Courtenay).

Their children Princess Thérèse 2001, Prince Pierre of Orléans 2003

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frimousse »

Offline britt.25

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2006, 02:11:35 AM »
Very nice pictures, unfortunately the point de Vue magazine is not to get here in Germany...I only bought some old examples at Ebay and they are very good and very interesting ;)
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline BorbonFan

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2006, 01:47:12 PM »
I am an Eastern Orthodox passioned about Christian prophecies as manifestations of the Holy Ghost. Two Christian prophets - St. Martyr and Bishop Methodius of Patara (Olympia) and Nostradamus - appear to announce the restoration of Monarchy in France.

Nostradamus' prophecies must be interpreted in a Christian key, for they herald the second coming of Jesus Christ, which is also their end point. One of them appears to announce the restoration of Monarchy in France:

IV 5
Croix, paix sous vn accomply diuin verbe,
L'Espagne & Gaules seront vnis ensemble,
Grand clade proche, & combat tresacerbe,
Coeur si hardy ne sera qui ne tremble.

Cross, peace, under one the divine word accomplished,
Spain and Gaul will be united together:
Great disaster near, and combat very bitter:
No heart will be so hardy as not to tremble.

Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nos/mrg/nosmrg04.htm

The "Cross" ("croix") is a clear symbol of the undivided Church, whose reunification will be "accomplished" ("accomply") most likely through war, as implied by the "peace" ("paix") that follows war. This peace will be brought about through a miraculous "divine" ("diuin") intervention - by the "word" ("verbe") of God.

The nostradamian prophecy is similar to an Eastern Orthodox prophecy of Methodius of Olympia (or Patara/Patares in Greek), an Orthodox saint and bishop, written in the early IV century. It is different from a so-called Pseudo-Methodius prophecy, written much later in the VII century, and completely different in contents. This prophecy announces the fall of the West ("the sun-set land") and especially of Rome ("the city of the seven hills") under the "Ismaelites" (Muslims), its liberation by the "blonde nation" (the Russians) and their subsequent stay in Rome for 15 years, period during which the "dormant snake" (an Orthodox symbol of Catholicism, as opposed to Islam, an active snake) will be crushed, forced to shed its heresies, and to return to Orthodoxy. Then, after these terrible events, the prophecy announces the freeing from under "Ismaelites" (the Muslims) of Byzantium (Constantinople) through the bloodiest war ever, whose victory will be decided in favor of a pan-European Christian coalition under the command of King "Philippe the sixth" by the divine intervention of angelic hosts. They will be conveying Christ's message, shouting out loud, making the earth tremble in a great earthquake, bringing the war to an end for the greater glory of God and of His Christ. After the re-establishment of the freed Eastern Roman Empire (also known as Byzantine) with its capital in Constantinople, the various churches, especially the Catholic one, seeing the great wondrous signs of God manifest in this terrible battle, will return to the unaltered Orthodox faith, restoring the undivided Church of the first millenium.

It is worth noting that St. Methodius' prophecy supports the nostradamian one, not only in what concerns the reunification of the Church accomplished through the great sign of the "divine word" ("diuin verbe"), but also about the fate of France and Spain. In St. Methodius's prophecy, the glorified leader of the pan-Christian coalition is nobody other than King "Philippe the sixth", who cannot be any other but that of either Spain or Belgium, the only two Christian kingdoms with Philippe's in their ruling houses and across their histories. To interpret this unique part of the prophecy - the only name in the prophecy -, the King of Spain is more likely to lead a pan-European coalition than the King of Belgium - a less militarily mighty country and also less likely to be involved in a war against the Muslim invaders by virtue of its position on the map.

If we corroborate the Orthodox prophecy about the glorious King "Philippe the sixth" (of Spain, if I may add) with the nostradamian one announcing the unification of Spain and France, it is very likely that the next King of Spain Philippe VI, currently Prince Felipe of Asturias, will become the King of France, thus restoring the Bourbons back on their ancient Throne. The creation of the Franco-Spanish Kingdom will be around the time of a "great disaster and combat very bitter" according to Nostradamus, a war none other than the one for Byzantium, the bloodiest ever according to St. Methodius' prophecy. Therefore, the glorified hero of the war for Byzantium, the future King Philippe VI of Spain, will have the best moral credit to be entrusted with the Throne of a France, very likely, also victim of the "great disaster". For a Christian-Muslim clash is unlikely to have taken place only in Byzantium, when we witness every day the increasing Islamic unrest and fundamentalism across the Middle East and Western Europe. Both St. Methodius' and Nostradamus' prophecies suggest such a war in the West, the first through an invasion of the "Ismaelites" in the "sun-setting land" and in Rome, the latter through a metaphoric image - "no heart will be so hardy as not to tremble" due to a "great disaster near." With France invaded by the Muslims, King Philippe VI will have the chance to lead the liberating campaigns for both Spain and neighboring France, thus earning himself the moral right to be entrusted with the French Crown.

God bless!
Borbon Fan
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Offline BorbonFan

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2006, 10:55:55 PM »
The Russian Saint Seraphim of Sarov also prophesized the restoration of Monarchy in France (and also Austria, the latter under the rule of Hapsburgs) after a devastating war prophesized as well by St. Martyr Methodius and Nostradamus, war in which Paris will be destroyed and France's population reduced to 17 million people. The restoration of the French Monarchy is clearly implied by France's new capital being moved to the ancient coronation site of Rheims: "Constantinople and Jerusalem will be inhabited by the combined powers of Russia and the others. At the division of Turkey almost all will go to Russia, and Russia with the united forces of many other States will take Vienna, and about 7 million native Viennese will remain under the house of the Hapsburgs, and there the territory of the Austrian empire will be constructed. To France for her love for the Mother of God, the holy Madonna, will be given up to 17 million Frenchmen with its capital in the city of Rheims, while Paris will be completely destroyed…" (Source)

God bless!
Borbon Fan
« Last Edit: August 05, 2006, 11:20:15 PM by BorbonFan »
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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: The restoration of Monarchy in France, pretenders and possibility
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2006, 10:37:08 PM »
I do not trust in these predictions. But if France will sometime restore the monarchy, I hope, France will appear under authority of an old and lawful dynasty of Bourbons.
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