Designs by Worth and Other Haute Coutures Part I

[Martyn]

I think it was Daisy Princess of Pless who observed that the German court dress, with the long train from the waist, looked less elegant than the British court train which hung from the shoulder(s) as she said the German arrangement pulled the dress down and back so much.

English court dress permitted the wearing of both waist-hung and shoulder-hung trains. 

Incidentally, Worth exhibited his shoulder-hung court train (which I think was in the late 1860's, so well into the Second Empire), which was in part designed as homage to the memory of the court dress of the First Empire.  Before that Second Empire court dress had favoured waist-hung trains.

Personally I prefer the waist-hung trains; having half a ton of velvet hanging from either one's shoulders or waist must have been pretty much of a muchness........

[brnbg aka: liljones1968]

I think it was Daisy Princess of Pless who observed that the German court dress, with the long train from the waist, looked less elegant than the British court train which hung from the shoulder(s) as she said the German arrangement pulled the dress down and back so much.

English court dress permitted the wearing of both waist-hung and shoulder-hung trains. 

Incidentally, Worth exhibited his shoulder-hung court train (which I think was in the late 1860's, so well into the Second Empire), which was in part designed as homage to the memory of the court dress of the First Empire.  Before that Second Empire court dress had favoured waist-hung trains.

i'm wondering if i could have confused Daisy w/ someone else in another era... 


does anyone know if i was mistaken re: the mandates & restrictions for court dress in Berlin around the turn of the century)?

Personally I prefer the waist-hung trains; having half a ton of velvet hanging from either one's shoulders or waist must have been pretty much of a muchness........

and i have to say i definately agree.    a train falling from the shoulders just doesn't look like a train to me.....it looks like a mantle.  to me, a train falls (somehow) from the waist.    but then again, i've never worn either.... 

[brnbg aka: liljones1968]

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but i'm pretty sure (75-90% -ish) she mentioned the train and/or dress, specifically -- (and/)or -- she may have been referring to the "new" train-length, generally, and i thought she meant the dress in the foto.  i just don't remember for sure & i can't the book anywhere....


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and i know i've posted this one (and the previous one) before, but it's been a while.   so....
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click on image for larger version

"Daisy" princess of Pless


note: if you look, she's wearing the 3 white plumes for attending the English Court (i claim insanity, but they're not just for presentation, surely?!!?).    also, she has the "Pless Pearls" (9 feet long!!) ... (or was it 6 feet?) looped around her waist (once?) and dangling down the front of her dress.  and located, somewhere, about her person, are a set of turquoise (wot's the plural of that, anyway?), of which she was rather proud. 

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......y'know, i knew she was reminded me of something or someone...and i, just now, realized who it is:   with her sense of style & artistic "flair for the dramatic", Daisy reminds me, very much, of Missy of Romania.     

(i may be slow, but i do, usually, get there (eventually).....)

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[Mari]

Directly below the pearl necklace which finally ends around her neck, there is an item that looks like a piece of jewelry or is it decoration. If it were on a Sweater I'd describe it as a Sweater Guard...what is that? It has a pearl loop look also!

[Martyn]

I wish that we could have a clearer view of the detail of her bodice as it appears that she has a profusion of jewels arranged across the front of what is essentially quite a small area.

It is a great Image Brian, nonetheless and shows daisy wearing court dress appropriate for the Englsih court no earlier than 1910.  We can see that her gown conforms to the fashionable 'Directoire' style of that time - high-waisted and with a square neckline.  I am sure that she must have looked very lovely in real life.

With regard to German court  dress, certainly up until the late 1880's and early 1890's, the prescribed neckline was off the shoulder, which was more in line with the fashions of the 1840's, 50's and 60's.  This gave ladies at court somewhat of a problem, as fashionable gowns of the time had shoulders; as I have described elsewhere, they were thus reduced to slipping the shoulders of their gowns down when royalty came into view in an attempt to flout court regulations and have fashionable modes.  A waist-hing train would naturally have been more compatible with an off the shoulder neckline, but this regulation may have been changed at some point..........

[gogm]

Or the court dresses could have been made by a modiste to regulation.

[brnbg aka: liljones1968]

Or the court dresses could have been made by a modiste to regulation.

but there's still a big difference between "off the shoulder" & "with whoulders", isn't there?    at least as far as regulations for dress at Court was concerned, right?

[CountessKate]

but there's still a big difference between "off the shoulder" & "with shoulders", isn't there? 

There's actually a big difference in practical terms - even bodices made of light silk and satins were lined often quite stiffly so dragging shoulder straps or fabric down from the shoulders would have been quite an operation and there wouldn't have been much 'give' in the material.   It might not just have been the un-fashionable nature of court dress which made women turn to these expedients - Agnes de Stoeckl wrote of the horrendous expense of obtaining a Russian court dress for her daughter when she became a lady in waiting, and in fact I think they got one second-hand.   Not everyone at court could afford the cost of a court dress which you could only wear for special court occasions.  The British court dress had the advantage of being re-usable for ball or other evening wear - especially if the train could be detached from the shoulders, which on reflection would be another attraction (I agree about the better look of a train from the waist, but not if I had to pay out for one which I could only wear a few times).

[Martyn]

Yes I agree.  Both Brian and CountessKate are right to suggest that slipping one's shoulders out of one's gown would have been a tricky operation at best, but one that these ladies felt was worth the risk of both discomfort (Lillie de Hergermann Lindencrone wrote of the tell-tale red marks left on their shoulders where the dress had been) and possible imperial displeasure, for the sake of fashion.

I'm pretty sure as well that newly married women presented at the Englsih court often had their wedding dresses adapted for the purpose of presentation, thus ensuring that an expensive and no doubt very special toilette achieved a double purpose.  I must agree with CountessKate about the rational use of gowns for English court dress; as she suggests these very costly toilettes could also be used as gala and ball dresses. 

Trains, whether waist-hung or shoulder-hung, were generally detachable anyway.

[brnbg aka: liljones1968]

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both CountessKate & Martyn's most recent posts reminded me of something:  many an american wedding gown had a second trip down the proverbial aisle and, occasionally, something of a longer life.   mind you, i'm grossly generalizing, but it does seem to have been a (relatively) common prectice for the wives of members of the american diplomatic corps to wear their wedding gowns for their first presentation at court, at least.    alterations were a must, however, since most were in the "wedding dress" style (high necks & long sleeves) and couldn't have been worn "as-is", obviously.     and for those with smaller budgets, the same gown (or parts thereof) lived a longer life at Court with a few more alterations. 

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[grandduchessella]

The V&A Lafayette archives have great photos of British court dress
(Georgina Lady Belhaven and Stenton) "Velvet train violette de Parme, opened up the centre with white satin panel and feathers. Bodice and petticoat exquisitely embroidered with chenille, amethyste, and diamonds. Real Duchesse lace, which on the bodice is lined with violet chiffon";

(Hon. May Hamilton) "White satin, with diamond embroidery and lilies. Train of white brocade, turned back down one side with flowers and plumes" (see: The Queen, 19 March 1898, p 507).

Lady Bedford
"Court gown of ivory duchesse satin; corsage embroidered with violets, brilliants and Rhine stones, and draped on one side with Honiton lace, and corselet of gold and jewelled embroidery; petticoat made with panels of the embroidery, opening on one side showing cascades of lace; Court train of petunia velvet, lined ivory duchesse satin, made from the shoulders and turned over at one corner with velvet emroidery, same design as gown and large white plumes caught up with lace. The Honiton lace was made specially for this gown" (see: The Court Circular, 14 May 1898, p 410a).


Court dress: "(Gown of) ivory satin; corsage and petticoat veiled with white embroidered mousseline de soie, with lace and bouquets of snowdrops; train of ivory duchesse, with a border of snowdrops" (see: The Gentlewoman, 19 March 1898, pp 366c & 368a).

If you click on some photos, there's more information on the dresses but not all.

[grandduchessella]

The description says the petticoat of the dress as well as the mantle is in mauve and she is wearing what looks like jet jewelry. Her husband died in 1897 so she seems to still be in half-mourning.

Those fancying trains that start at the waist and not the shoulders will like this (and its clasp)


Here's Baroness Graevenitz in Russian court dress presented at British Court


"The Russian court dress was exceedingly picturesque and was donned for all bigger occasions. It consisted of amply cut velvet robes over a tablier of white satin; the shape, with its train, and wide, long-hanging sleeves, had something mediæval about it. These robes were heavily embroidered in silver or gold and were of every colour of the rainbow; the richest of all were of cloth of gold or silver.

A halo-shaped cocoshnic with a veil hanging from beneath it inevitably accompanied this costume, so that every woman appeared to have been crowned. This unity of attire made all Russian court gatherings uniquely picturesque, saturating them with colour and brilliance unlike anything else; veritable pictures out of the "Thousand and One Nights," Byzantine in splendour, with all the mysterious gorgeousness of the East. In those days the processional entry of the Russian Imperial family into festive hall or saint-haunted church was a picture once seen never to be forgotten." Marie, Queen of Roumania, The Story of My Life, London, 1934, Vol I, p 95