Author Topic: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917  (Read 45829 times)

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David_Pritchard

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2005, 10:54:49 AM »
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You know I think that N & A and all of the Imperial Family made their own rescue and removal from Russia hard themselves.  

They were unwilling to give up the trappings of their positions and the matierial things that they loved (In my opinion) more than their freedom.

There is a line from N&A by Massie where Alix is worrying about her "picture books" and Kerensky tells her that she is lucky to be keeping her head.

What do you think?  Given the chance to get your family and loved ones away from a desperate situation or bringing trunk upon trunk of Imperial trappings, which would you take?

Every time that I read of their depravation in captivity with all of their servants and footmen and cooks and butlers and kitchen boys, etc.  I just shake my head in wonder.

How could they be so arrogant?  I would think that they would have been glad to get out alive with their loved ones and only the clothes on their backs.

It does seem though that fate was against them in the form of the measles and other stumbling blocks.  

But the arrogance of Alix and Marie F and everyone except GD Olga A seems incomprehensible.

But as to this topic, I would imagine that even if there were plans to go abroad, then all of this attenion to detail could have been fore gone and the important things, (the members of the family) should have just gone without Count Benckendorff arranging anyhthing more than that.



Not all of the Imperial Family were so tied to their possesions as to risk their families lives. GD Kyril and GDSS Victoria Melita left Saint Petersburg with next nothing to save their family. GDSS Maria Pavlovna and her husband Prince Sergei Putatin barely made it to the German lines with few possesions other than jewellry to use for bribes.

I would have to say that out of all the Imperial Family, GDSS Maria Pavlovna had the best sense of what was going to happen in the future. She sent most of her money to her son in Sweden and liquidated GD Dmitri's real estate holdings, except for Ilyinskoe before the Revolution, and sent the proceeds abroad.

What real estate did Nicholas II have abroad? Nothing really except for that little island in Scotland. What bank accounts did he have abroad that were his personal property rather than those of the Russian State? None as far as I know. I suppose that Nicholas would have been pennyless if he fled Russia. At least while under house arrest he had servants, food and shelter provided for himself and the family. I suppose that if he had assets abroad, he might have been more intent on leaving Russia.

David

kmerov

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2005, 11:47:04 AM »
I don't think that the majority of the IF cared more about money than their own lives.
Nicky would have beeen almost pennyless because he (and other IF members) used the money abroad to help the situation in Russia, and the money in German bank accounts were gone, because of inflation. So I don't seem them as being more concerned about materiel things than their lives.
Jewelry was not just a money thing, but also things of personel value for them.
I really don't see Nicky wanting to leave Russia if he had a chance of staying under safe circumstances.

SuSu

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2005, 12:34:37 PM »
I too have been distracted by the thought that some Country could have saved the IF.

What really could have been done to help save them:
Europe was immensed in the first World War. Communication and travel were not as they are now.
Lenin himself was expecting workers revolutions in England and Germany. Socialism was on the rise. Monarchys were beginning a demise.

It is a shame however that five innocent children whose lives had not begun became martyrs.  

Alixz

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2005, 04:58:14 PM »
I suppose that you are right and that places to escape to were limited.

Looking back we all think that someone would have taken them out of simple humanity.  Conditions at the time seemed to have precluded that.

I also think that Nicholas would have stayed just because he was the ultimate patriot.

TheAce1918

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2006, 11:09:11 PM »
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I too have been distracted by the thought that some Country could have saved the IF.

What really could have been done to help save them:
Europe was immensed in the first World War. Communication and travel were not as they are now.
Lenin himself was expecting workers revolutions in England and Germany. Socialism was on the rise. Monarchys were beginning a demise.

It is a shame however that five innocent children whose lives had not begun became martyrs.  

I agree.  I myself have been distracted about the thought of some country taking the IF in.  The question is.  Europe seemed out of the question for refuge due to the war.  America was too far, and even if...what happened between Stalin and his purges, they reached all the way to Mexico!  
[sigh] it was all beyond :'(  and way too complicated  >:(

azrael7171918

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2006, 05:42:14 AM »




There is a line from N&A by Massie where Alix is worrying about her "picture books" and Kerensky tells her that she is lucky to be keeping her head.



Word of advice. Never never take that movie as gospel! If you do you will believe that horrible scene towards the end with Tatiana as truth.

Azrael

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2006, 10:13:51 AM »
The reference was to the book, Nicholas and Alexandra.

I haven't read it, or seen the movie, in a long time. Is the movie very faithful to the book? There are certainly things incorrect in the book, beloved though it is, just because of the limitations on information back then.
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ALEXEI_P

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2006, 04:39:12 PM »
GrandduschessElla,

I don't have the book at hand but do have a the DVD.  In the screenplay the line from Kerensky to AF is "Frau Romanov, you have kept your head, you should be grateful."  Nicholas tries to comfort here by saying "They are just thngs, things get lost, get broken, we are together and that is what matters". The film is discussed at length on the films forum here.

Regards,
Alexei

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2006, 09:00:56 PM »
Thanks Alexei.  :)

I was wondering if the line in the movie was in the book since the poster originally said it was from N&A by Massie and then the movie was brought up. I was curious if the movie took the line from the book or if it was just artistic license for the film.

I'll check out the threads on the movie to see if the answer is there.
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Constantinople

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2010, 04:45:09 AM »
I think that if they had been exiled to Livadia instead of to Siberia, everything would have been better and a rescue could have been facilitated but then Kerensky probably understood that.  I think that Nicholas was a fatalist who thought that his position was a gift from God and that it was God's will that the ensuing facts took place. It is well known that he was not a good decision maker and that he could not anticipate consequences well.  As well, having been an autocrat, he was not used to people questioning him.  As for the children,  I doubt they would have left their parents even if they had been ordered to.

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2010, 07:31:23 AM »
One has to wonder that if NII and AF were unwilling to leave Russia and face the consequences they might have made sure the children, or at the the four girls, got out to somewhere safe. Whilst not good at making decisions it must have crossed their minds that they could be in danger. Whilst it is comforting to have your family with you I would have thought it would also be comforting to know they were safe from what ever fate awaited the Tsar. it is one thing to face your own fate but quite another to put others in the position where they must also face the same fate. I know illness was a problem when at the AP but indecision allowed the entire family to be lost in time when some might have been saved.
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Constantinople

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2010, 11:18:15 AM »
This is an assumption but I think that Nicholas was a fatalist and I think he thought noone would actually execute the Tsar.  This is strange considering the fate of Alexander ll and the train crash that he experienced with his father.  By the time they were in Ykaterinberg, it was too late and at that point they could only hope.  The White army almost saved them and if they had had better intelligence, they might have had more success.  Prior to the point of incarceration in Ykaterinberg, Nicholas must have thought that while things were risky that their lives were going to be safe.  One thing that is interesting is the fact that they had enourmous wealth in jewels hidden on them.  Given the fact that even under Kerensky it would have be risky to convert these into cash in Russia, there must have been some subconscious thoughts about exile.

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2010, 01:08:03 PM »
I agree. Up to Tobolsk there was a chance for them to be rescued but once in the hands of Yekaterinburg all hope was lost. If only the Whites had been better organized some or all of the family may have got out alive and Russia's history might have been very different indeed. One of those what if
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Constantinople

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2010, 09:48:10 AM »
If they had gone to Livadia instead of Siberia, they would have made it into exile on one of the British warships and would have had over 3,000,000 rubles in jewels to finance their exile.

Constantinople

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Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2010, 08:52:30 AM »
One thing I noticed was that the Imperial Family wanted to go to Livadia after the abdication but Kerensky insisted on Tobolsk.  One thing that should be considered is the amount of animosity that Britain felt for Russia.  I think this was a combination of jealousy over the amount of wealth that the Imperial family owned and snobbery about the lack of development of Russia and Russian society. 
   I was reading a book on Japanese history and noticed that the British attitude to Japan's victory over Russia was extatic and jubilant. I doubt very much that Britain would have taken the Imperial family into exile even if they could have left Russia. The Tsar's mother, who was not a reigning monarch was ok, as were distant relatives.  But not the Imperial family. Denmark would have been a safer bet.