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Author Topic: James II  (Read 29131 times)

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palatine

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James II
« on: September 25, 2005, 07:56:49 AM »
Depending on which biography you read, James comes across as a saint, a blithering idiot, or a vicious reactionary who delighted in torturing people.

I think James was sincere about his goal of religious toleration.  

James was warned of the invasion plan of William of Orange (James's son-in-law, godson and nephew) but simply would not believe it was true until it was too late.  In exile in France, James was simply heartbroken over all the betrayals, and could never truly pull himself together again or trust anyone.  Whatever his faults were as a ruler, James was an excellent father who was devastated over the actions of his daughters.

All of this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: James II
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2005, 08:04:33 AM »
James was perfectly capable of defeating William's army - he had more men, he was more experienced, he was on home soil etc. But he panicked at Salisbury and fled back to London. Had his son not been born, I think the English would have been willing to let him live out his life as King with the expectation that Mary would succeed him.
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"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: James II
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2005, 08:12:09 AM »
i read somewhere that when the old pretender was born, mary beatrice was pretty old and that's why most english believed it was  a fake...

how old was she?
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: James II
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2005, 08:13:55 AM »
Mary Beatrice was only 30!
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"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

bell_the_cat

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Re: James II
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2005, 09:08:14 AM »
Here's my take on James:

He was fundamentally lacking in self-confidence, which stemmed from his childhood, having always been in the shadow of his more outgoing brother. He was always trying to make up for this though. He kept his true opinions to himself.

He may or may not have been sincere about toleration. Partly because of his personality, and partly because of the twists and turns of his policy, he lost within three years whatever trust his subjects had in him. They didn't even believe it when his son was born, preferring to believe the most absurd rumours about a suppositious child.

It wasn't a good time to pursue a policy of toleration anyway, especially one that seemed to favour catholics. The thousands of huguenot refugees who arrived from France after Louis XIV's Revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685, making it seem all too likely that James had a return to Rome in mind.

It would have been a difficult trick to pull off, and it would have been wonderful if it had succeeded, but noone really trusted James, so he was doomed to failure.

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: James II
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2005, 09:13:29 AM »
Very succint Bell.

I think also that James drew all the wrong lessons from the Civil War. Whereas Charles say that though England wanted a monarchy, the monarch had to play by England's rules. James saw, however, that the English rebels had murdered his father, and then come crawling back to his brother, begging him to be king. He saw this and it made him think that the people were fundamentally weak. He was determined to bring them and parliament to heel.

Ironically, his beleif in the Divine Right of Kings forced him to agree with everything Charles suggested - he didn't want Mary to marry William, but since Charles did, he couldn't disagree!
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"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

umigon

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Re: James II
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2005, 06:07:26 AM »


I also think James had a lack of self- confidence...


About the age of Mary Beatrice, Ilyala, it had nothing to do with people thinking that James Edward wasn't really the King's child because, as Prince has already told us, she was only 30. The fact that made people believe the story of the warming pan was that Mary Beatrice had already given birth ten times and none of those babies had survived. Having a healthy son and precisely when James was reigning was a bit suspicious. The fact that Anne of Denmark was spreading the rumour only helped for people to believe it!!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: James II
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2005, 11:40:14 AM »
Yes, Anne was a real snake.  >:( She deliberatley made herself unavailable around the time MB was coming to term so she wouldn't be asked to witness the birth - so she could spread rumours about it later. That said, even if she had been present, I doubt she would have scroupled about lying about it.
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"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Modena

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Re: James II
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2005, 03:09:51 PM »
I think James was sincere about his goal of religious toleration.  

James was warned of the invasion plan of William of Orange (James's son-in-law, godson and nephew) but simply would not believe it was true until it was too late.  In exile in France, James was simply heartbroken over all the betrayals, and could never truly pull himself together again or trust anyone.  Whatever his faults were as a ruler, James was an excellent father who was devastated over the actions of his daughters.

All of this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

[/quote]


You may be interested in this link:

http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/king-james(n)-1.htm

One cannot trust too many biographies of James, they are way too apologetic to the people who betrayed him for their own purposes. :(
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: James II
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2005, 03:12:10 PM »
Welcome Modena! I hope you'll be a knowlegable and friendly addition to our little community here on the Stuart board and on the Forums as a whole!  :D
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"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Modena

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Re: James II
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2005, 03:23:02 PM »
"He may or may not have been sincere about toleration. Partly because of his personality, and partly because of the twists and turns of his policy, he lost within three years whatever trust his subjects had in him. They didn't even believe it when his son was born, preferring to believe the most absurd rumours about a suppositious child.

It wasn't a good time to pursue a policy of toleration anyway, especially one that seemed to favour catholics. The thousands of huguenot refugees who arrived from France after Louis XIV's Revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685, making it seem all too likely that James had a return to Rome in mind.

It would have been a difficult trick to pull off, and it would have been wonderful if it had succeeded, but noone really trusted James, so he was doomed to failure.
[/quote]

IMO, he WAS sincere about religious tolerance, that was what essentially did him in, the bigotted establishment couldn't stand it and fed the fires of intolerance.  :-X
They were at James for years, this was a man who had over 60 (?) witnesses to the birth of his son, yet STILL couldn't "prove" his son was indeed his. :(  The depths some of his supporters, his friends, even his children sank to was truly pathetic, IMO.
One has to really respect a man who had some principles and was willing to make a stand for them.


Check this out if you wish:  :)

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/20


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Modena

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Re: James II
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2005, 03:26:13 PM »
Quote
Welcome Modena! I hope you'll be a knowlegable and friendly addition to our little community here on the Stuart board and on the Forums as a whole!  :D


Thanks for the pleasant welcome!

I hope to share whatever knowledge/opinions I have and learn more than a few new things from other members! :)

cheers!  ;D
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Modena

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Re: James II
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2005, 03:33:11 PM »
Quote
Yes, Anne was a real snake.  >:( She deliberatley made herself unavailable around the time MB was coming to term so she wouldn't be asked to witness the birth - so she could spread rumours about it later. That said, even if she had been present, I doubt she would have scroupled about lying about it.


You won't get any disagreement from me on this subject.  >:(
She was very self-serving, and her parents were nothing but very kind and giving to her.  :-/  
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: James II
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2005, 05:35:55 PM »
Yes, James was always indulgent with her. And Mary Beatrice too, tried to make an effort. Anne was a complete cow to her (sorry but this is something I feel strongly about  ::)). She wrote to her sister in Holland, poisoning her mind against Mary Beatrice, always protesting that she had nothing against her stepmother, and though Mary Beatrice was always kind, Anne 'knew' that Mary Beatrice 'hates me'.  >:(
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"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Modena

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Re: James II
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2005, 05:45:54 PM »
Quote
Yes, James was always indulgent with her. And Mary Beatrice too, tried to make an effort. Anne was a complete cow to her (sorry but this is something I feel strongly about  ::)). She wrote to her sister in Holland, poisoning her mind against Mary Beatrice, always protesting that she had nothing against her stepmother, and though Mary Beatrice was always kind, Anne 'knew' that Mary Beatrice 'hates me'.  >:(


Oh, I totally agree with you!  :) What she did was totally inexcusable in my books. :(  

When Mary Beatrice was alone in London, Anne very nearly got her killed, if I'm recalling things properly. (inciting her "mob" against the poor Queen.) When James heard about what Anne had done, he was understandably angry.
Mary Beatrice didn't deserve the hatred Anne felt towards her. She was always kind to her, even in exile, she never encouraged her husband against his children.
I just cannot say enough about her classy character in the face of some really lowdown behaviour from others.


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