James II

[Prince_Lieven]

And the English line . . .

Mary Rose Tudor (1496-1533) = Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk (1484-1545).

Eleanor Brandon (1519-1547) = Henry Clifford, Earl of Cumberland (1517-1570).

Margaret Clifford (1540-1596) = Henry Stanley, Earl of Derby (1531-1593)

Ferdinando Stanley, Earl of Derby (1559-1594) = Alice Spencer (d. 1631)

1.Anne Stanley = Grey Brydges, Earl of Chandos (d 1621)
Their line died out c.early 1700s.

2.Frances Stanley = John Egerton, Earl of Bridgewater.

John Egerton, Earl of Bridgewater = Elizabeth Cavendish.

John Egerton, Earl of Bridgewater = Jane Paulet.

Scroop Egerton, Duke of Bridgewater (1681-1745). Oooh-er. 'King Scroop'?

[bell_the_cat]

Thanks, I knew you'd come up with the goods!

[Prince_Lieven]

 :)My pleasure. Here's the alternative - Katherine Grey's line.

Katherine Grey = Edward Seymour, Earl of Hertford.

Edward Seymour, Lord Beauchamp = Honora Rogers.

William Seymour, Duke of Somerset = 1. Arbella Stuart. 2. Frances Devereux.

Henry Seymour, Lord Beauchamp = Mary Capell.

Elizabeth Seymour = Thomas Bruce, Earl of Elgin

Charles Bruce, Earl of Elgin and Ailsbury (1692-1747). King Charles III?  

[ilyala]

uhm... scroop?!!!  

[palatine]

Thanks bell and Prince!

I must say, King Scroop doesn't sound very regal.....  

[palatine]

James often got his hopes up that his daughter Anne would help to restore him or his son.  A letter that Anne sent to James in 1691:

"I have been very desirous of some safe opportunity to make you a sincere and humble offer of my duty and submission to you; and to beg you will be assured that I am both truly concerned for the misfortune of your condition, and sensible, as I ought to be, of my own unhappiness.  As to what you may think I have contributed to it, if wishes could recall what is past, I had long since redeemed my fault.  I am sensible it would have been a great relief to me if I could have found means to have acquainted you earlier with my repentant thoughts, but I hope they may find the advantage of coming late- of being less suspected of insincerity, than perhaps they would have been at any time before.  It will be a great addition to the ease I propose in my own mind by this plain confession, if I am so happy as to find that it brings any real satisfaction to yours, and that you are as indulgent and easy to receive my humble submissions as I am to make them, in a free, disinterested acknowledgment of my fault, for no other end but to deserve and receive your pardon.  
I have had a great mind to beg you to make one compliment for me, but fearing the expressions which would be properest for me to make use of might be, perhaps, the least convenient for a letter, I must content myself, at present, with hoping the bearer will make a compliment for me to the queen."

[Prince_Lieven]

Thanks for typing all that out palatine. To be honest, I find it surprising that James and Anne even corresponded at all post 1688 . . .  

[palatine]

Anne was involved in a plot to restore James to the throne circa 1691-2.  After the plot failed, her letters to James stopped until the death of William of Gloucester, when she began writing to him again.  When Anne died, a bundle of letters from James, Mary of Modena and the Old Pretender were found among her papers.  They were burned.  

Mary never wrote to James again after 1688, though she may have received letters from him.  She burned her correspondence before she died.

[bell_the_cat]

Anne was involved in a plot to restore James to the throne circa 1691-2.  After the plot failed, her letters to James stopped until the death of William of Gloucester, when she began writing to him again.  When Anne died, a bundle of letters from James, Mary of Modena and the Old Pretender were found among her papers.  They were burned.  

Mary never wrote to James again after 1688, though she may have received letters from him.  She burned her correspondence before she died.

This correspondence was one reason why Mary and Anne fell out wasn't it?  The Churchills were also involved.

[palatine]

James's beloved illegitimate son, the Duke of Berwick, was John Churchill's nephew.  Churchill and Berwick stayed in touch over the years.  Churchill seems to have been trying to keep his options open by staying in touch with his nephew and with James II, while Anne initially got in touch with her father out of spite towards William and Mary.  Thanks to spies at the court of the exiled Stuarts, William and Mary always had a pretty good idea of who was writing to James and what they discussed.  

Anne's contact with the exiled Stuarts was one of the reasons she fell out with William and Mary, but the main problem between them was a financial one.  James was always very generous towards Anne, making her a large allowance and meeting her gambling debts; William and Mary were not as indulgent.

Many people who might have tried to effect a counterrevolution on James's behalf were lulled into inactivity due to rumors that Anne was in touch with her father and that she planned to restore him or her brother when she came to the throne.  

Of all of the illegitimate children of the Stuarts, James Fitzjames, the Duke of Berwick, was one of the most capable.  He became a military commander of note in the service of Louis XIV, and distinguished himself during the War of the Spanish Succession.  Although Berwick had a difficult relationship with Mary of Modena, he served the Old Pretender loyally and was involved in many plots to restore him to the throne.

[Modena]

Of all of the illegitimate children of the Stuarts, James Fitzjames, the Duke of Berwick, was one of the most capable.  He became a military commander of note in the service of Louis XIV, and distinguished himself during the War of the Spanish Succession.  Although Berwick had a difficult relationship with Mary of Modena, he served the Old Pretender loyally and was involved in many plots to restore him to the throne.[/quote]

I thought they got on rather well, both having the same sense of humour?
Where was the difficulty?

[bell_the_cat]

Of all of the illegitimate children of the Stuarts, James Fitzjames, the Duke of Berwick, was one of the most capable.  He became a military commander of note in the service of Louis XIV, and distinguished himself during the War of the Spanish Succession.  Although Berwick had a difficult relationship with Mary of Modena, he served the Old Pretender loyally and was involved in many plots to restore him to the throne.I thought they got on rather well, both having the same sense of humour?
Where was the difficulty?

Welcome back Modena!  
The only Mary Beatrice joke we came across was her nickname for her step-daughter Mary - "Lemon" (i.e. not "Orange"). I hope Berwick's jokes were better than that.

I'm sure Palatine will know why they might not have got on - apart from the fact that he was the son of James's mistress!

[palatine]

You summed it up nicely, Bell.  Mary wanted to promote an image of her late husband as a martyr for his faith, a quasi-saint, and issued propaganda to that effect.  Berwick's very existence challenged the image Mary tried to create.  He was also far more realistic about ways and means of restoration than Mary and her son were, which led to disagreements and coldness between them.

[Modena]

Welcome back Modena!  
The only Mary Beatrice joke we came across was her nickname for her step-daughter Mary - "Lemon" (i.e. not "Orange"). I hope Berwick's jokes were better than that.

I'm sure Palatine will know why they might not have got on - apart from the fact that he was the son of James's mistress!

She was known to be witty and to have quite a sense of humour.
Berwick strikes me as having quite a dry wit.

[Modena]

You summed it up nicely, Bell.  Mary wanted to promote an image of her late husband as a martyr for his faith, a quasi-saint, and issued propaganda to that effect.  Berwick's very existence challenged the image Mary tried to create.  He was also far more realistic about ways and means of restoration than Mary and her son were, which led to disagreements and coldness between them.

Interesting. Where did you get this information, I have a couple books on Mary but am always eager to find out even more about her.
I read in one book that near the end of Mary's life there is an anedocte about Berwick and his wife visiting her and joking with her about redecorating her apartments.