Author Topic: Queens of Bohemia  (Read 76459 times)

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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2008, 11:28:32 AM »
Does anyone know anything about the two wives of Václav IV (1378 - 1419) ? I have heard that he was not a very good husband (and very different to his father, Karl/Karel IV) and that his first wife was bitten to death by vicious hunting dogs that he kept, but perhaps this is only a legend. Does anyone have more detailed information?

Veronika

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2008, 07:25:47 AM »
The first wife of Vaclav IV. was Johanna Wittelsbach. They were married when they were 9. Is said she was a kind women and they had quite happy marriage. There have been more versions about her death. The first version is that when he got up, one of the dogs in the room bitted to death her. The second version is that any dog bited her and then she had a cynolyssa. The third version said she died of hunger. And the last and the newest version said she died of a plague.

The second wife of king Vaclav IV. was Sophie Wittelsbach. She was beautiful and she was quite young (13), when Vaclav IV. married her. Sophie was an admirer of Jan/John Hus. She had an economy talent, because she was good in things about her property. Chronicles said they had quite happy marriage. There is a legend that after Vaclav IV. death she had an affair with Vaclav´s brother and next king Zikmund. She died in 1425 in Bratislava.

Johanna and Sophie didn´t have children, because Vaclav was probably infecund. I have never seen any picture of Johanna of Sophie.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2008, 07:44:26 AM »
Hi Britt,
your picture is very nice, it is from 19th century, isnt it?
Picture of Elisabeth of Bohemia is from Zbraslavska kronika - Chronicon Aulae Regiae – „Zbraslavska chronicle“ from 14th century – very important source about history of Bohemia in first half of 14th century. There are more pictures of Queens of Bohemia there – Guta Habsburg too.
here is the bad copy of it:


Two pages with Kings and Queens of Bohemia from these chronicle you could find on web pages: http://www.nacr.cz/karel/viewer.asp?id=36.


That is a fascinating page! Thank you for posting that link and picture. Did you also find a picture of Guta von Habsburg there? I did not, but you said in your last post she is also to find there.
I only know the one from the Primisser tree, wich was let made my emperor Maximilian I. (Many of the pictures are much idealized, but wonderful. The site of the austrian national library has all of them.)
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2008, 08:52:26 AM »
The first wife of Vaclav IV. was Johanna Wittelsbach. They were married when they were 9. Is said she was a kind women and they had quite happy marriage. There have been more versions about her death. The first version is that when he got up, one of the dogs in the room bitted to death her. The second version is that any dog bited her and then she had a cynolyssa. The third version said she died of hunger. And the last and the newest version said she died of a plague.

The second wife of king Vaclav IV. was Sophie Wittelsbach. She was beautiful and she was quite young (13), when Vaclav IV. married her. Sophie was an admirer of Jan/John Hus. She had an economy talent, because she was good in things about her property. Chronicles said they had quite happy marriage. There is a legend that after Vaclav IV. death she had an affair with Vaclav´s brother and next king Zikmund. She died in 1425 in Bratislava.

Johanna and Sophie didn´t have children, because Vaclav was probably infecund. I have never seen any picture of Johanna of Sophie.



Very interesting information! It's strange about the death of the first wife of Vaclav or Wenzel. I have read that Wenzel was indeed a strange person, even considered as somebody like a second "Nero". He must have been very sardistic, and therefore it could be true that his wife was starved or hunted to death. Many kings in the middle ages were alredy very cruel, but Wenzel must have been a terrifying person. In my book on the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire it is written that he was paranoid, who let execute people for useless reasons, he also should have fried his own cook at a spit, only because the meal did not taste good. :o
He shall have thrown a vicar of bishop Johannes Nepumuk in the Moldau, because he did not want to tell him the confession secrets of his wife...
After bad political successes he shall have spent most of his time together with his hunting dogs in a locked up room and became also an alcoholic. He was not a very loved monarch, there would be many more other things to tell.
When he was told about the Hussit rebellion he died of a stroke ;D
Well, it is hard to imagine that any marriages might have been happy...I can't believe it... :(


Here is a picture of Wenzel when praying. Here he looks so friendly, but maybe the picture does not tell the truth:




Another picture of him:





Here are both parents of Wenzel:




Here a picture of his second wife Sophie:




His first and second wife were cousins, who both were distant cousins to Wenzel as well, as they all descended from Rudolf von Habsburg. The Wittelsbach princesses from Ludwig IV. of Bavaria, whose mother was Rudolfs daughter Mathilde, and as we already know,  Wenzel descended from Guta of Habsburg, another daughter of king Rudolf I von Habsburg.


The sister of Johanna von Bavaria, was Johanna Sophie, who was married to Albrecht IV. von Habsburg:





La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

beladona

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2008, 10:28:02 AM »
Britt, Guta is in the page 35, the women in the middle...

Here is the whole picture of Sophie and her husband (it is miniature from Bible of Wenzel IV.)


And another idealized portrait of Wenzel IV.:


I think that lot of things you wrote about Wenzel is only legends or very exagerrated, especially the one about Johannes Nepomuk and the confession secret...
Wenzel IV. was not very successful king but we should not forget that he was also supporter of culture, there is a lot of beautiful manuscripts from time of his reign, some of them with hermetical and astrological subjects.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 10:31:30 AM by beladona »

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2008, 12:02:42 PM »
Veronika, Britt 25 and Beladona, many thanks for the wonderful pictures and information about Václav (Wenzel)  IV. It is very difficult to untangle the truth from the legends that have built up around this King. It appears that the real reason for the death of Johannes Nepomuk was because he opposed the king's wish to establish a bishopric in Kladrau in south Bohemia and supported the Abbot of the Cistercian Abbey of Kladrau who wanted to continue to be the ecclesiastical authority in that area. However, it does seem as if Nepomuk was brutally tortured and burnt (it is claimed by the king himself) before being thrown into the Moldau/Vltava. However, when the decision was made to transfer his body from its initial resting place to St. Veit's Cathedral (where his grave can still be seen today), Václav (Wenzel)  IV made no objection, although he could probably have prevented the reburial. Johannes Nepomuk was made a saint in 1729, thus I wonder were some of the legends "invented" at that time?

Talking of legends, does anyone know of the legend of Semik and Lord Horymir which is set in Vysehrad?

Offline britt.25

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2008, 12:56:38 PM »
Britt, Guta is in the page 35, the women in the middle...

Here is the whole picture of Sophie and her husband (it is miniature from Bible of Wenzel IV.)


And another idealized portrait of Wenzel IV.:


I think that lot of things you wrote about Wenzel is only legends or very exagerrated, especially the one about Johannes Nepomuk and the confession secret...
Wenzel IV. was not very successful king but we should not forget that he was also supporter of culture, there is a lot of beautiful manuscripts from time of his reign, some of them with hermetical and astrological subjects.


Sorry, if you think that the things are not true. I cannot prove the contrary, I must confess. I only left here the things I found in my books, especially of one of all Holy Roman emperors. It's hard to decide what's legend and what's not. I am also not too well known concerning Wenzel, maybe you know much more...But generally it seems that he had many problems in the reign and was not very loved, and was (it was said already from people of that time) remembered as a cruel person. But there is much more backgound, which should be told here....even when I don't think that those impressions about his behaviour come from nothing  it can be that some things are exaggerated and were not transferred correctly through sources. Please note that I always used the conjunctive, like "it is said that she shall have been...made etc.
Thanks for the whole picture of Wenzel and wife!
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

beladona

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2008, 04:21:31 PM »
Sorry Britt, I did not want to critise what did you write. I think that it is just as you write – these stories about his behavior could not come from nothing. I just wanted to show some of his better „aspects“ too.

As regards legend about Horymir, his horse Semik and their miraculous jump, yes, I know this legend, it is very nice, it sounds like fairy-tale.
And what about legendary Premysl „the ploughman“ and Libuse, mythical ancestors of Premyslid dynasty?

Offline britt.25

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2008, 03:07:07 AM »
Hi Beladona,

No problem, as I said, I'm not too knowing about Wenzel. If you have more background infos I would be glad. It's a pity but concering kings in the middle ages I'm not too good at...I only read about executions, which Wenzel let make etc, but I would be very interested inf you have also more concerning on a positive backgound of him. Every person should be looked at from two sides!
If you can provide more infos, I would be happy!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 02:57:08 AM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2008, 04:28:39 PM »
Yes, the legend of Lord Horymir, his horse Semik and their miraculous jump to freedom from Vysherad is like a fairy tale. Is there any historical basis at all to the legend? I have heard that there is actually a monument somewhere in the Czech Republic known as "Semik's grave". However, nobody seems to know who built it or what is inside (or underneath).

I love the Libuse legend where she says that across from Vysherad a city will be built whose fame shall reach the stars (or something like that). Odd that so many legends seem to be connected with Vysherad. Mind you, it is a very cold and windy place and it is difficult to imagine Libuse (assuming she existed) living there all those centuries ago.

Cheers,
GREENOWL

beladona

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2008, 09:35:03 AM »
I am not a medievalist , so I am affraid I will not know more about Wenzel than you.
I think that Wenzel was born to a very complicated period of political and religious changes, but he was not interested to take a part in solving these difficulties. I also think that his father, emperor Charles, was so happy he had son (he was 45 and three times married when his first son Wenzel was born!), that he from the beginning overstrained him. Wenzel had to participate in councils and political negotiations from age of 5. And the effect? He hate it - he prefered drinking and hunting, arts and astrology or simply doing nothing. And the end of his reign was sad  - as emperor he was deposed, as czech king several times imprisoned…
Another Wenzel

beladona

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2008, 09:36:35 AM »
Yes, the legend of Lord Horymir, his horse Semik and their miraculous jump to freedom from Vysherad is like a fairy tale. Is there any historical basis at all to the legend? I have heard that there is actually a monument somewhere in the Czech Republic known as "Semik's grave". However, nobody seems to know who built it or what is inside (or underneath).
I love the Libuse legend where she says that across from Vysherad a city will be built whose fame shall reach the stars (or something like that). Odd that so many legends seem to be connected with Vysherad. Mind you, it is a very cold and windy place and it is difficult to imagine Libuse (assuming she existed) living there all those centuries ago.

Greenowl, Horymir is probably legendary person. It is said that the sources of legends about his jump should be taken from some west-european legends about knights and chevalliers.
Semik, his horse, did not survive this jump and it is said he was burried in Neumetely, where they both escaped after this jump.
In Premyslid dynasty there is lot of legends – for example Oldrich and Bozena, Bretislav and Judita…or three sisters Kazi, Teta a Libuse…what about Habsburgs? DO they have some legends around their legendary ancestors?

Offline britt.25

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2008, 12:29:22 PM »
I am not a medievalist , so I am affraid I will not know more about Wenzel than you.
I think that Wenzel was born to a very complicated period of political and religious changes, but he was not interested to take a part in solving these difficulties. I also think that his father, emperor Charles, was so happy he had son (he was 45 and three times married when his first son Wenzel was born!), that he from the beginning overstrained him. Wenzel had to participate in councils and political negotiations from age of 5. And the effect? He hate it - he prefered drinking and hunting, arts and astrology or simply doing nothing. And the end of his reign was sad  - as emperor he was deposed, as czech king several times imprisoned…
Another Wenzel


That's interesting, when having time, I must read a bit more about the time-backgound of him. I was not concerned with the middle ages at my university for some time now, and so I forgot many things, and do not have much knowledge about that epoche as well.
(Even when surely many things do not fit...) the things you wrote remind me a very very bit on Rudolf II. of Habsburg, especially the strong dedication to art and astrology etc and neglecting (I hope the word isn't too hard) political things etc. By the way, Rudolf II. was very fond of Prague and transferred his court to that town, did a lot of astrological work there and pushed other natural sciences. I read a book (biography ) on him, which is called "der Alchimist von Prag", very interesting, but many dark sides of his life.
Nice picture of Wenzel! Is it at a church or something? Do you have connection to that from your national background? Would be interested to know....
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2008, 02:53:39 PM »
Thanks for that information Beladona. To be honest, I have never heard of Oldrich and Bozena or Bretislav and Judita. Nor have I ever heard of the Habsburgs having any legendary ancestors. The only legend that I am aware of is the white lady.

Cheers,
GREENOWL

beladona

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Re: Queens of Bohemia
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2008, 04:18:55 PM »
Britt your parallel with Rudolf II is very interesting. They both were very complicated personalities with dark end of their lives.
The picture of Wenzel IV is from Old-town tower, which is in front of famous Charles bridge.
Here is larger part of beautiful sculptural decoration:

Wenzl is on the right side, on the left side is his father, Emperor Charles IV. Inbetween there is St. Veit, patron of bridge.