Archduke Ferdinand, Karl-Ludwig's son

[MarieCharlotte]

There is a whole chapter about Maria Josepha and Otto Tressler in one of my books, but there isn't much information given. It is mentioned that Maria Josepha herself went to the Emperor and told him about her relationship to Tressler. He often visited Maria Josepha in her Palais Augarten at Vienna. But everything was top secret. Tressler also didn't mention the Archduchess in his autobiography. Shortly after Otto's death in 1906, the couple went seperate ways. But Maria Josepha watched his movies.

Tressler was also invited by Queen Elisabeth of Rumania ("Camen Sylva") to have tea with her. The book says that Elisabeth was also attracted by the actor. And Tressler was often with Franz Ferdinand at Belvedere Castle.

[paola]

Dear Marie,

do you know more info about Otto's mistresses? Were they actresses? And how about Louise?Any pictures? Did she have children by Otto?

[MarieCharlotte]

Dear Marie,

do you know more info about Otto's mistresses? Were they actresses? And how about Louise?Any pictures? Did she have children by Otto?

Otto's first official mistress was Marie Schleinzer. She was a ballet dancer. In her fourties she was married to Dr. Julius von Hortenau, but she was still in love with Otto. Although he had meanwhile another mistress, Louise Robinson, she visited him in Vienna. In 1900 when Otto became very ill for the first time, she left her husband in order to care for Otto. Later she returned.

Louise didn't have children by Otto. She was a singer. I don't know much more about her.

[britt.25]

One -maybe a bit stupid- question. When Marie Schleinzer gave birth to her son and her daughter of Otto, she wasn´t already married to Dr. Julius von Hortenau? I only ask , because if she was already married at that time, it could be possible that her son is from her husband as well? I don´t know, I only ask. Was Julius the "official" father of the children? Was she only the mistress of Otto at the time, when she became pregnant? I only ask, because there are sometimes famous mistresses in history, who had different lovers at the same time and then the paternity isn´t clear. What about Marie S.? Had anybody doubts concerning the paternity of her children? Do you know anything about this, MarieCharlotte?

[MarieCharlotte]

One -maybe a bit stupid- question. When Marie Schleinzer gave birth to her son and her daughter of Otto, she wasn´t already married to Dr. Julius von Hortenau? I only ask , because if she was already married at that time, it could be possible that her son is from her husband as well? I don´t know, I only ask. Was Julius the "official" father of the children? Was she only the mistress of Otto at the time, when she became pregnant? I only ask, because there are sometimes famous mistresses in history, who had different lovers at the same time and then the paternity isn´t clear. What about Marie S.? Had anybody doubts concerning the paternity of her children? Do you know anything about this, MarieCharlotte?

That's definitely not a stupid question. Marie's son Alfred was born in 1892 and her daughter Hilde was born in 1894. The text says that she married Hortenau in her fourties. Of course, I don't know Marie's year of birth, but I guess that she must have been as old as Otto or even younger. A smart Archduke like Otto would not have made an older woman his mistress, I guess. So let's say Marie was born in about 1865, which means that she married Hortenau 40 years later in about 1905. So Alfred and Hilde couldn't be Hortenau's children.

I also know that Otto lived with Marie Schleinzer and the two children in a villa at Vienna. Do you think that an Archduke like Otto would have lived in the same building as Marie's children by another man? I don't. 

The marriage of Marie and Julius von Hortenau was ordered by the Emperor. He created Dr. Julius Hortenau, who was a normal citizen, "Dr. Julius Edler von Hortenau". Alfred, Otto's son, also had that title.   

[britt.25]

Thanks for the details and the info,my knowledge is not so detailled in that point, I must confess, was too long concerned with other things. But I was concerned with so many incertain cases in  history, especially with illegitimate children and so on, that was the reason, I asked. But why did Alfred carry the name Hortenau? Did Julius accept him or let him have his name? Or did the emperor decide it? There are other cases in history, where illeg. children later carry the name of their mothers husband, even when he is not the father. Was it like that? Were there any special reason that Franz Joseph wanted her so marry Hortenau, when she already had the children and lived with Otto?
It´s quite strange that Otto lived together with his mistress...poor Maria Josepha, I guess. I know I asked this question before, but it would have been interesting to know, if there had been a contact between Alfred and the later Karl I, as they were half siblings, but I suppose Karl and Max lived with the mother, and did not know the half siblings well, or was it different?

[MarieCharlotte]

Thanks for the details and the info,my knowledge is not so detailled in that point, I must confess, was too long concerned with other things. But I was concerned with so many incertain cases in  history, especially with illegitimate children and so on, that was the reason, I asked. But why did Alfred carry the name Hortenau? Did Julius accept him or let him have his name? Or did the emperor decide it? There are other cases in history, where illeg. children later carry the name of their mothers husband, even when he is not the father. Was it like that? Were there any special reason that Franz Joseph wanted her so marry Hortenau, when she already had the children and lived with Otto?
It´s quite strange that Otto lived together with his mistress...poor Maria Josepha, I guess. I know I asked this question before, but it would have been interesting to know, if there had been a contact between Alfred and the later Karl I, as they were half siblings, but I suppose Karl and Max lived with the mother, and did not know the half siblings well, or was it different?

As the Emperor always tried to keep relationships like that in secret, it is hard to answer your questions. I think that Franz Joseph decided that Alfred should carry the name "Edler von Hortenau". I know that there were some children that had the name of their mother's husband, although this man was not their natural father. Just think of Stéphanie Richter's son by Archduke Franz Salvator! 

In my opinion Franz Joseph wanted Hortenau to marry Marie to seperate her from Otto. As Hortenau's wife she lived in Abazzia far away from Otto.

Finally, I don't know if Karl and Max had contact to their half-siblings. They lived with Maria Josepha in the Augarten Palais, but they also had contact to their father. But I am quite sure that the Archdukes knew about the "other" family of their father Otto.

[britt.25]

Thanks for answering, it´s very kind, you´ll hear from me later in private

[paola]

It is ironic that both Otto and Ferdinand were so much against the marriage of their brother Franz Ferdinand to Sophie Chotek, when Otto himself had mistresses and illegitimate children and Ferdinand  would  later also  marry morganaticaly.

[Sir_F]

By chance I found this your lines and I like to give you the following information:

According to documents stored at the Haus-, Hof- und Staatsarchiv in Vienna Dr. Julius Cohn was a physician having been awarded with the title "Kaiserlicher Rat", means "Imperial Councillor". With date 24 October or 27 November 1911 he has been ennobled and styled "Edler von Hortenau" (see "Adelslexikon des Österreichischen Kaisertums 1804 - 1918" by Peter Frank Döfering).

So if Marie Schleinzer has married a Dr. Julius Cohn von Hortenau and if he has adopted the children Hilde and Alfred to give them also the name "Cohn von Hortenau", both marriage and adoption must have happened after this date.


This is what I wrote in June about Otto's children - I'm sorry, but I don't have more information about them:

Archduke Otto, son of Karl Ludwig and Maria Annunziata of the Two Sicilies, had two well-known mistresses: Marie Schleinzer and Louise Robinson. Otto had two children with Marie, Hilde and Alfred. He even acknowledged them.
When Marie Schleinzer has already been about 40 years old and had this two children, she married Dr. Julius Cohn Edler von Hortenau from Abbazia. Hilde and Alfred were given the name "Cohn von Hortenau", too.
I don't know much about Otto's children. Alfred became a doctor and worked in Abbazia just like his step-father Julius. After WW II, Alfred moved to Sweden and the USA, but in the 1960's he came back to Abbazia to look for some documents concerning his family. He was married two times, his second wife was apparently from Zagreb.
Hilde moved to America, too. When she came back to Abbazia and married Madara Kuczor, she had a shop where she sold flowers. In about 1941 the shop has been closed.
Marie Schleinzer died in 1949 and is buried in Abbazia.

As for Maria Josepha and Otto Tressler: I have a book in which their relationship is mentioned, but I couldn't find this book yesterday. Sometimes there are too many books on the floor and it's not easy to find a special one.  But I will tell you more about them later.

[Rani]

[Carolath Habsburg]

With brother Franz Ferdinand. Circa 1892

[Rani]

With brother Franz Ferdinand. Circa 1892

Ferdinand looks quite like Annunziata. It was good to see that a member of the Habsburgs married a non-royal and doesn´t care of the court.
All sons of Karl Ludwig were a litlle bit rebellious. Maria Annunziata I think so, too. She didn´t married.

With Berta



In Egypt in 1912, now as Ferdinand and Berta Burg

[Rani]

With his brothers 1896



1868

[YaBB_Jose]

Although he looked sooo very much older he died at just 47.

What were the causes of his early death ?