Was Grand Duke Ernst really gay/bisexual?

[rjt]

Y'all get a grip. Michelle is a child. She will learn in her own good time that the Bible is not the be-all, end-all she has been programmed to believe it is. When she does, and that has opened her eyes to the reality of today's world, she will have that great "Aha" moment we all had.

Let it be known that I am not defending her in the least bit. As a gay man, I am horrified by her comments and beliefs. But they are hers and I will defend her right to express them to my death. This is America. I would suggest, however, that she stop frequenting this thread if it disgusts her so much.

For the sake of peace and dialogue on this board, however, I would like to respectfully submit that if any one person (and this is not directed solely at you, Michelle) is causing discord, perhaps they should be banned from the site. It has happened occasionally at another board I frequent, and always to the great relief of its members.

Now to the GD. I have reservations about people continually refering to him as homosexual. Having obviously fathered children and played husband and father, would that not classify him (in today's lingo) as bisexual at best? Just a thought.

Peace
Rob

[grandduchessella]

Y'all get a grip. Michelle is a child. She will learn in her own good time that the Bible is not the be-all, end-all she has been programmed to believe it is. When she does, and that has opened her eyes to the reality of today's world, she will have that great "Aha" moment we all had.

Let it be known that I am not defending her in the least bit. As a gay man, I am horrified by her comments and beliefs. But they are hers and I will defend her right to express them to my death. This is America. I would suggest, however, that she stop frequenting this thread if it disgusts her so much.

For the sake of peace and dialogue on this board, however, I would like to respectfully submit that if any one person (and this is not directed solely at you, Michelle) is causing discord, perhaps they should be banned from the site. It has happened occasionally at another board I frequent, and always to the great relief of its members.

Now to the GD. I have reservations about people continually refering to him as homosexual. Having obviously fathered children and played husband and father, would that not classify him (in today's lingo) as bisexual at best? Just a thought.

Peace
Rob

It may in today's lingo. I don't know about the time. (And Robert respectfully asked us to say 'gay' which I support as it's much shorter to type.   ). As the only son/heir wouldn't he have to marry & father children? He was a dutiful, responsibly ruler. I think he probably was more bi-sexual since he seemed very content with Onor and even wanted his marriage to VM to work out until it was just unbearable for both. Or, like many gay men just learned to either stuff their urgings away for periods of time (ala KR) and have a 'normal' life or perhaps never married. Ernie married just a few years after his divorce so I think for whatever reason he wanted/needed to be married. As I mentioned above, my father-in-law married and fathered children (thank God!) before divorcing my MIL when hubby was 16 (but not fessing up until Bob was in his late 20s and only when he directly asked him). He is definitely GAY no bisexuality there--he's been with his partner since the marriage broke up . It was just the norm to marry & have kids up until the last few years really so it's really hard to use it as a barometer of anything I think. It is interesting that men about whose sexuality much is speculated like EL & KR, they married 'soft', mothering, nurturing women (Onor & Mavra).

[rjt]

It may in today's lingo. I don't know about the time. (And Robert respectfully asked us to say 'gay' which I support as it's much shorter to type.   ). As the only son/heir wouldn't he have to marry & father children? He was a dutiful, responsibly ruler. I think he probably was more bi-sexual since he seemed very content with Onor and even wanted his marriage to VM to work out until it was just unbearable for both. Or, like many gay men just learned to either stuff their urgings away for periods of time (ala KR) and have a 'normal' life or perhaps never married. Ernie married just a few years after his divorce so I think for whatever reason he wanted/needed to be married. As I mentioned above, my father-in-law married and fathered children (thank God!) before divorcing my MIL when hubby was 16 (but not fessing up until Bob was in his late 20s and only when he directly asked him). He is definitely GAY no bisexuality there--he's been with his partner since the marriage broke up . It was just the norm to marry & have kids up until the last few years really so it's really hard to use it as a barometer of anything I think. It is interesting that men about whose sexuality much is speculated like EL & KR, they married 'soft', mothering, nurturing women (Onor & Mavra).

You're right, of course, about the request to use 'gay.' I, too, hate the clinicalness of the H word.  

I hope there will be some insight into the GD's mind in the forthcoming (hint, hint) book by our esteemed compatriots.

BTW, I think I love you, grandduchessella! I would be most interested in hearing your husband's story, as the adult son of a gay man (see! I used the G word!!). That is one POV I've been intrigued by. (Right, Off-topic...sorry.)

[Michelle]

So sorry Michelle. You are a bigot and you are in the mind frame of a child having a temper tantrum. You brought up the subject of homopobia, and unfortunately for you, you have to live with the consquences of your words.

As long as you continue to condemn gay people and the gay people on this board, and our lifestyles (I'm home from work sitting in front of a computer, snacking on junk--such a decadent lifestyle, while my wife is watching mindless TV--again decadent) you can expect more of the same.

 Not only have your remarks shown a total lack of respect for some of the posters on this board, you show a lack of respect for Art, who is one of the foremost historians in his field. I include Robert in your lack of respect, because he has been nothing but a gentleman to most on the board and extremely helpful and insightful on many areas of Russian history.

Once again, let me remind you. If you intend on studying the art of history, then you had better open up that narrow mind of yours and allow differing opinions and thoughts to enter into it. You are allowed your opinions on gay people, and we are allowed to defend ourselves.

Louise

Okay, Louise.  So, if I'm defending myself after a totally uncalled for reopening of this argument, that's a "temper tantrum?"  Why do you people feel it's necessary to tell everyone about your personal sexual lives?  I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE GAY, JUST STOP FLAUNTING IT!!!!!  Not everyone is interested in what others prefer in the bedroom!  I really wish you all would take that into serious condsideration.  

However, I'd like to thank gdella for trying to be the peacemaker.  Ella, don't feel at all ashamed for starting this topic.  It was NEVER, I'm sure, meant to turn into this really really REALLY dumb--to put it lightly--discussion, if you even want to call it that.  

And Robert, you mean that my truce was stupid?  So you want to keep flinging the mud?  Art was the one who ranted and raved as a reaction to my peaceful post.  And I still can't figure out why he felt there was more that needed to be said--just getting back from Cancun doesn't matter.  How did he feel threatened by me calling an end to this?  I can understand that historical figures' lives need to be examined thoroughly, and that their sexual preferences are legitimate topics.  But what reason is there to involve our own personal lives?  When I first posted on this particular thread, THAT was the gist of my post!  And it was in response to Lisa's assertations that she had gone to a gay wedding, blah blah blah.  It didn't have anything to do with the HISTORICAL topic at hand.  And Lisa, I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm just explaining why I posted on this thread.  

rjt--So basically what you're saying is that anyone who holds the Bible and God/Jesus in high authority you just dismiss as being "programmed" to believe that?  Hasn't it ever ocurred to you and others that maybe people like me see the world and all it's corruptness, and who believe in God and have our own innate morals will make up our minds ourselves and are most certainly not "programmed?"

And Louise, just to ease your dire worries that I'll be going into the history world, I'm not.  But even if I did, I wouldn't care to look back on historical figures and examine their "gayness."  It's when people start flaunting their sexuality on me that I get angry.  What's the point?  As a historian, I'd be only concerned with the long passed figure of the discussion at hand.  And no matter how much a gay person would flaunt it on me,  I will never change my opinion--and it's not because I'm "programmed" that way--it's because I, ME, MYSELF, NOT UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF OTHERS, don't like it!  Please just accept that.

[Forum Admin]

OK,
I'm back.  
First, everyone to a corner and chill a minute. I am locking this thread for two days to give "all y'all" (in the Texas vernacular) a "time out."

Michelle: I want you do do something for me, very seriously. Go back and read this entire thread three times. First time, everytime you see the words "gay/homosexual" insert the word "Jew". Second time insert the word "Black/Negro/African American (whichever is most PC for you). THEN go back and read it a third time.

I encourage everyone else to do the same. NOW, in a discussion, legitimately historical by all accounts, it is quite appropriate for someone similarly situated to bring their personal experience to the discussion.
For example: I am Jewish, my grandparents lived under Nicholas II in Poland. My family's experiences and my personal experiences ARE quite reasonably expected to come up in a discussion of Russian Jewry under the Imperial Regime, right?
Am I "Flaunting" my "Jewishness"?

As someone wrote me earlier on this subject "If I mention that I am married and have children, that necessarily implies that I am heterosexual and have sex, but am I flaunting my bedroom habits in anyone elses face?" Merely saying one is gay divulges no different information.

Both sides have to relax a little bit. Trust me, I applaud Robert, Art, Louise, et al for publicly even admitting their lifestyle. Many gay/lesbian people will not do that. But, try to remember, we MUST keep this as civil and to the point as possible. Believe me, I have lost my cool in the past, in another forum, and frankly, it was not appropriate for anyone involved on either side. Fortunately, everyone calmed down, and in the long run, cooler heads prevailed, and all parties now are friends and bygones are just that.
I hope we all take some time to just get back on track.
Any problems, comments or questions on this subject are to come directly to me privately in the next two day.
Fair enough?
FA