Author Topic: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line  (Read 227610 times)

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Rani

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #270 on: September 21, 2009, 10:36:16 AM »


You can see on the desk pictures of Helene, Max Anton, Margarethe...

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #271 on: September 23, 2009, 08:56:48 PM »
Yes. The salon is full of stuff from the family. Gloria Von Thurn & Taxis once said they had too much of that stuff...

Rani

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #272 on: October 19, 2009, 05:58:06 PM »

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #273 on: October 20, 2009, 04:19:41 AM »


Great picture, thanks for sharing! It's another version of the very well-known photo that can be found in "Das Familienalbum ..."

Where did you find it? Online or in a book?
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Rani

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #274 on: October 20, 2009, 07:00:22 AM »
It´s in Martin Dallmeiers book "Dieser glänzende deutsche Hof ... : 250 Jahre Thurn und Taxis in Regensburg".

Rani

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #275 on: October 20, 2009, 07:15:00 AM »

Offline allan

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #276 on: November 01, 2009, 03:17:00 PM »
Based on your contributions and information from other sources, I launched a Wikipedia entry on Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Thurn_und_Taxis). Looking forward to your contributions to further improve the page. Best wishes, Allan

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #277 on: November 02, 2009, 05:51:35 PM »
It is interesting his letters to Ludwig still survive while it is hard to know more about him.

Offline allan

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #278 on: November 03, 2009, 03:25:58 AM »
The letters of Paul to Ludwig are all cited from Desmond Chapman-Huston’s book. He lived in Bavaria in the 1930s and became close to María del Pilar Princess of Bavaria (1891–1987), daughter of Ludwig Ferdinand of Bavaria. Through this connection to the Wittelsbach Family, he was able to get access to the Secret Archives before they were heavily destroyed during World War II.

Chapman-Huston went also to the Regensburg Archives of the Thurn und Taxis Family, but couldn’t find any trace of Paul there (see page 42 of his book).

Some references to Paul can be found in the letter exchanges between Ludwig and Cosima Wagner, with Ludwig once calling Paul’s wife ‘ugly’, although in other references she was cited as very beautiful.

I doubt that Heinrich is really Paul’s son since his birth date is June 30, 1867, but Edir Grein mentioned that both met in middle of November 1866 only. Heinrich was obviously left behind with his father when Elise eloped with a Prussian officer in 1878:

“Now among the mediatized princes, no member of the reigning house may marry without the consent of the Family Council. A good many years later, in the winter of 1877-8, we were at Freiburg. At the theatre the prima donna was a Frau von Fels. Her husband was actually a Prince Thurn u. Taxis. He had fallen in love with a Jewess who sang in the Opera, and only obtained leave of his family to marry her, on condition that he renounced his title and name, and agreed that his children, if any, should have no claims on the family estates. He agreed to these harsh terms and married her. After a while he fell into a decline, and went with her to Lugano, where he grew worse, and took to his bed. She formed a liaison with a Prussian officer, staying at the same hotel, and eloped with him, leaving her husband, who had given up so much for her, to die unbefriended, and her little son—motherless” Early Reminiscences, Baring-Gould http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Early_Reminiscences.djvu/80

Baring-Gould mentions her again in his “Further Reminiscences 1864 to 1894 “
…(Freiburg, 1877)….Acting in the theatre as a prima donna was a Frau von Fels. She was a handsome Jewess. Herr von Fels was actually a Prince of Thurn und Taxis, but forfeited his title so as to marry her. I have told the story in the fifth chapter of my Early Reminiscences .  She exacted from her husband that, whenever she acted, he should throw a bouqet on to the stage at her feet, and get his friends to do the same. “

Earlier, Paul tried to get rehabilitated by his family and visited his father together with his wife on August 3, 1869 (http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?apm=0&aid=nfp&datum=18690811&seite=14&zoom=2  newspaper clipping from Vienna), but obviously to no avail.

I found another newspaper clipping of 1874 (from New Zealand!), which states that Helene of Thurn und Taxis tried to connect Paul to Ludwig again for him to become the future Marshal of the Royal Palace and Master of the Revels of castle Herrenchiemsee, but obviously this didn’t push through (see http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=BH18741204.2.4&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0-all for the whole article).

I was able to trace his grave site in Cannes, but unfortunately, the grave was abandoned in 1998 and then retaken by another family. I tried to investigate who paid for the grave and maintained it over the years, but wasn’t given an answer since I am not a family member.

There are many more traces of Paul still to be discovered.

I am deeply touched by the story of his live – he became a victim of Ludwig’s erratic and immature emotional condition, a victim of his family who deprived him of his name and title,  and - in the end - a victim of his wife who - despite of all the sacrifices he suffered for her - abandoned him in the final weeks of his life when he needed her most.

Offline allan

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #279 on: November 03, 2009, 11:54:31 AM »
You're most welcome. It would be great if you will write an article about him. Somehow he deserves that his live is wrested from oblivion. From all what I learnt about him, I think he was really a nice and good hearted guy, who really got the sh.. end of the stick.

I just received a manhunt datafile regarding the whereabouts of Paul v. T.u.T dated August 1867 of the Rhineland-Palatinate State Archives. Unfortunately, it is in old German penmenship ("kurrent") and I've a hard time to decipher it.

I believe another good source to learn more about Paul and his (later) relationship to Ludwig could be Helene of Thurn and Taxis. She became the inofficial head of the Thurn and Taxis family, after Paul's father died in 1871 (and Helene's husband in 1867). Obviously, she tried to reconnect Paul and Ludwig and it would be interesting to look into the correspondance between Helene and Ludwig.

Several biographers of Ludwig state that his sudden engagement with Sophie on 22 Januar 1867 was triggered by the marriages his friends Paul and Graf Holnstein. I believe so, too, but I rather see the possibility that he did it in a way to get even with Paul...

Anyway, looking forward hearing from you...

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #280 on: November 03, 2009, 03:22:25 PM »
Thanks Allan for the wonderful information, it is a big help to any researcher.

Alas, it is hard to get the letters of Nene, and I don't think they were published.

Offline allan

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #281 on: November 04, 2009, 09:09:01 AM »
It could be worthwhile looking at the Wittelsbach Archives in Munich as well as the Taxis Archives in Regensburg for letters exchanged between Nene and Ludwig, especially for the period 1873-1875. If Nene did not address Ludwig directly for the issue of making Paul Marshal of the Royal Palace, possibly she used her sister Sisi, who could easily get access to Ludwig? The New Zealand newspaper clipping mentions the diplomacy skills of Nene...

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #282 on: November 05, 2009, 03:14:38 PM »
I have been to the Wittelsbach family archievs in Munich and found some nice photos for my next book on the sisters. However since I do not read German, they do not think I will be able to read the letters. Like I still have photostad copies of letters of Madi to her son-in-law until her death. They were written in longhand in German. Can you sent me info on the New Zealand clipping ? Thanks.

Offline allan

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #283 on: November 06, 2009, 03:17:42 AM »
It's a pity we did meet earlier. I am German, but working and living abroad and just spent several months back home in Bavaria (and just the opportunity to visit Cannes and Paul's former gravesite). Possibly, I will be able to assist you in reading some of the letters. I started to learn German longhand to decipher a manhunt file concerning Paul. After Ludwig dropped him, he obviously bolted the army in January 1867 and left for Switzerland together with Elise using the name 'Rudolphi'.

I am presently trying to find out what caused Ludwig to suddenly abandon Paul. My present source are the letters exchanged between Cosima Wagner and Ludwig. After Paul stayed in Tribschen in August 1866, he was still very close with Ludwig until middle of October. On September 1, Ludwig wrote to Cosima that he will make him Indendant of the Munich Court Theatre starting January 1, 1867 (pending the approval of R. Wagner, which he gave in his letter to Ludwig dated Oct. 8). Ludwig mentions a trip to the mountains in early September where his horse fell on Paul and hurt him seriously, but he stayed on his bedside for some time. In October, Ludwig is obviously in Paul's appartment at Tuerkenstrasse 82 for 14 days according to the memoirs of PRINCE CHLODWIG OF HOHENLOHE-SCHILLINGSFUERST http://www.archive.org/stream/memoirsauthorise01hoheuoft/memoirsauthorise01hoheuoft_djvu.txt .

On Oct. 20, however, Ludwig mentions to Cosima that Paul needs to be punished and that he will transfer him to the artillery.
What happened? Did he learn about the affair with Elise? Ludwig was known to be extremely jealous.

As regards the New Zealand newspaper, this is the link http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=BH18741204.2.4&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0-all

If you can't access it, I can send it to you via email (allancortez[at]gmail.com)

Offline Danjel

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Re: Thurn und Taxis, the elder line
« Reply #284 on: November 18, 2009, 08:10:01 PM »






Alexander with his first wife Marie Princess of Ligne




I think this is not Alexander, the brother of Erich, but Alexander the son of Erich with his wife. You can see in the picture the first 2 names of the woman, Marie Valerie....
Alexander Ferdinand Hans Hugo Karl Egon Rudolf Lamoral Erich (Schloß Mzell 31 Aug 1906-Munich 16 Dec 1992); m.(morganatically) Prague 26 Oct 1935 Marie Valerie Gfn von Mazzuchelli (Vienna 15 Apr 1913-Vienna 20 Jul 2001)