Calling all judges!

[etonexile]

Rachael,
He is being sarcastic, and referring to a character similar to "Winnie The Pooh" by AA Milne. Lighten up as it is meant in good fun, at least when English is your first language..."Tedders aka Teddy" as in "Teddy Bear".

Yes,Rachael...the FA has come dead close to rumbling Tedders and me...Though I must say that reading the latest installment of "Winnie The Pooh Versus The Violent Feather Killers From Mars" has given us both a new appreciation of Mr. Milne....Lady Longford in Spandex...who would have guessed?

[Rachael89]

Now that last line WAS funny Etonexile  , you're getting better!

Rachael

[Belochka]

How sad it is that some people, no matter how much published scientific evidence is presented before them in recognized accredited medical journals, will persist in discrediting those confirmed facts; and by inference the leading medical scientists in the field, with their tiresome unsubstantiated hypotheses.

The Anna Anderson game is over.  It is time to move on!  

[annaanderson]

You have yet to explain WHY this point of view is any different from SPACE ALIENS being involved, other than YOU want to believe it. You see, THAT is the critical difference between Science Fiction and SCIENCE. Please, this forum is devoted to SCIENCE and EVIDENCE based on RESEARCH and REALITY. not SCIENCE FICTION.

First off, the subject of space aliens is not ridiculous. Just research the events in Roswell, New Mexico. But back to the subject, the reason people believe there was a switch is not because they WANT it to be so. I don't see why it should matter to me if there was an Ekaterinburg survivor at all. The fact is, the DNA tests simply contradicted every little detail that Anna Anderson knew about Anastasia's childhood that did not appear in books. When taking this into account, it's not ludacris at all to think there was a switch. The mystery is not over at all. I think it should also be noted that Prince Nicholas Romanov was showing interest in the tissue to begin with, according to Massie's book. Then someone reccomended he stay away because the family supposedly thought she was bogus.

[annaanderson]

Do you really think anyone cared that much? Some people have even blamed the Queen! But don't forget, it was the Schweitzers, SUPPORTERS of AA who instigated the tests!


And who was this who consented to be cut open and have a part of their intestines removed? What was in it for them, who paid them off? Or were they kidnapped and it was removed by force? And how did this 'switcher' know exactly what part of the intestine should be cut out so it would match up? See it really makes no sense at all.

If Charlottesville Hospital were involved in the possible conspiracy, then it wouldn't matter what size the intestine tissue was, as Dr. Peter Gill and others never knew what the "original intestine" really looked like. Also, I don't think it is so far-fetched that a Schankowska relative would have part of their intestine removed. Wouldn't you like to have a famous legend as part of your family? All of this may be made-up out of the blue and seem crazy, but I do believe in the possibility as there is no other explanation as to how Tatiana Botkin, Felix Dassel,  and others could recognize her as the woman they knew and how she had such intimate knowledge unless she was indeed Anastasia.

[Annie]

If Charlottesville Hospital were involved in the possible conspiracy,

This is a libelous statement and we have agreed before not to post such serious and unsubstantiated accusations on this forum.

t wouldn't matter what size the intestine tissue was, as Dr. Peter Gill and others never knew what the "original intestine" really looked like. Also, I don't think it is so far-fetched that a Schankowska relative would have part of their intestine removed. Wouldn't you like to have a famous legend as part of your family?

Not really, they still don't like to discuss it even though she was proven to be FS. So they certainly weren't out for legends and fame.

is no other explanation as to how Tatiana Botkin, Felix Dassel,  and others could recognize her as the woman they knew and how she had such intimate knowledge unless she was indeed Anastasia.

Could be either they are lying or mistaken. As far as her 'memories' many in the Russian emigre' community throughout Europe in the 20's who knew the family could have told her things, including the Botkins!

In your other post you mention other things about her childhood that were not mentioned in books. What, where is this? Details? Proof? Seems if there were such goodies out there surely Kurth or Lovell would have found them.

[Forum Admin]

Actually, the Spiridovitch memoir "Les Dernieres Annees de la Cour a Tsarskoie Selo" published in 1926 contains at least 85% of the "details" just in itself... and, as I have said before, THIS thread is not about baseless speculation, which is what AA keeps repeating. You can start a "What if..." speculation thread if you want, but not in this one or I will lock it.

[annaanderson]

This is a libelous statement and we have agreed before not to post such serious and unsubstantiated accusations on this forum.


Not really, they still don't like to discuss it even though she was proven to be FS. So they certainly weren't out for legends and fame.


Could be either they are lying or mistaken. As far as her 'memories' many in the Russian emigre' community throughout Europe in the 20's who knew the family could have told her things, including the Botkins!

In your other post you mention other things about her childhood that were not mentioned in books. What, where is this? Details? Proof? Seems if there were such goodies out there surely Kurth or Lovell would have found them.

Wait a second. You're always saying to present a suspect of such, and I presented someone. I'm not saying MJ Hospital WAS involved in a conspiracy, I simply stated the possibility.

As for the memories, Felix Dassel came to visit and could never trip Anderson up when he tried to. Eventually, she pointed to a man in a photo and said, "It's the 'Man With the Pockets!" Dassel was convinced, and said that Anastasia herself came up with the name and that no one other than he, Anastasia, and Marie could have known the detail.

[rskkiya]

First off, the subject of space aliens is not ridiculous. Just research the events in Roswell, New Mexico. But back to the subject, the reason people believe there was a switch is not because they WANT it to be so. I don't see why it should matter to me if there was an Ekaterinburg survivor at all. The fact is, the DNA tests simply contradicted every little detail that Anna Anderson knew about Anastasia's childhood that did not appear in books. When taking this into account, it's not ludacris at all to think there was a switch. The mystery is not over at all. I think it should also be noted that Prince Nicholas Romanov was showing interest in the tissue to begin with, according to Massie's book. Then someone reccomended he stay away because the family supposedly thought she was bogus.

How much did she [AA] ''really know about her childhood"  that we can objectively be certain that actually happened?
What memories are you refering to that 'did not appear in books'? Of all the information collected about AA's Russian childhood memories that I have read or heard recorded - there is really not much there ... just a lot of vague stories of playing with paper balls ...little else that's really objectively remarkable or distictive at all.


;)Also AnnAnderson --The 'Space Alien Theory' is SUPPOSED to be silly... Dear -its a a joke!  


OK?

[Annie]

Wait a second. You're always saying to present a suspect of such, and I presented someone. I'm not saying MJ Hospital WAS involved in a conspiracy, I simply stated the possibility.

I did miss the word "if", but people have accused them. No, it's really not a possibility at all.

As for the memories, Felix Dassel came to visit and could never trip Anderson up when he tried to. Eventually, she pointed to a man in a photo and said, "It's the 'Man With the Pockets!" Dassel was convinced, and said that Anastasia herself came up with the name and that no one other than he, Anastasia, and Marie could have known the detail.

We really don't know who got out of Russia alive knowing what, who talked to her, who told her what, either on purpose or inadvertently in conversation. You can't say 'only' they would know. And while we're on 'if's' what 'if' Dassel was a part of a conspiracy to boost her claim for a piece of the money and he told her ahead of time? As FA said, most of her 'memories' were in a 1926 book. Some others were incorrect, and others could have been told her by Russian emigres' who knew the family. There was a LARGE number of them in Europe in those days. But as FA said, this is not another AA discussion thread and if it continues he will lock it. So start a 'what if' thread if this is to continue (his words not mine)

[Louis_Charles]

The Forum Administrator has carefully explained --- for the umpteenth time --- why the hospital could not have been involved in a conspiracy, indeed, why no one could have, thanks to the relatively late determination that DNA could be used for identification purposes.

The samples were checked by four independent labs with identical results.

The idea that a member of Franziska's family could have been persuaded to donate the exact same intestinal sample that was removed from Anastasia Manahan (and the mysterious conspirators would know the exact sample needed because . . . ?) makes space aliens at Roswell, the Bermuda Triangle, and the input of the bloody teddy bear look like eminently sane, plausible theories.

By all means, create a "what if" thread, which is where this belongs. I enjoy reading those kinds of things: "What if Alexis had never had hemophilia? What if the South had won the American Civil War? What if Eleanor Roosevelt had had wings and functioned as a precision bomber over Europe during World War II?" I mean, I don't confuse them as history, but I enjoy reading them.

One more thing. There seems to be an implicit belief that any Romanov that opposed Anastasia Manahan did so out of ignoble reasons, i.e. in their hearts they knew she was the Grand Duchess, but mercenary or political concerns prevented them from acknowledging her. I am not a Romanov, but I can certainly understand the idea that someone pretending to be was offensive.

I am a graduate of the University of Virginia, however, and have family members that worked at Martha Jefferson Hospital during the period in question. I have questioned them about the idea of fraud, and without exception they snorted in disbelief. As my sister pointed out, do you think that there are that many people so interested in this case that it would have engendered high level conspiracy? The DNA results were a blow to the Schweitzers, understandably. And to Peter Kurth, understandably. How many others really cared or were affected by them?  There was no money to inherit, Anastasia couldn't have become Tsaritsa, and judging by the way the Romanovs are dealing with "Grand Duke" Georgiy, she probably couldn't have provided a common symbol behind which imperial forces (are there imperial forces?) could have united. And if Stalin had been convinced that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia, Andersen would have been knocked off in the 1930s.

What if, indeed.

[annaanderson]

The Forum Administrator has carefully explained --- for the umpteenth time --- why the hospital could not have been involved in a conspiracy, indeed, why no one could have, thanks to the relatively late determination that DNA could be used for identification purposes.

The samples were checked by four independent labs with identical results.

I don't understand why it matters what Stalin thought. He never met Anastasia or Anna Anderson. As far as the forum administrator demonstrating that there could have been no conspiracy, no he has not. I've seen no evidence that the tissue and hair were from Anna. If they did indeed get into contact with someone in the hospital, then yes, they would know the tissue sample was from an intestine. No one has bothered to explain how Anderson knew the information she told to Felix Dassel, that Dassel said only very few people knew about. There's too much proof to the contrary. If Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, she would've had to been possessed with her spirit as Grand Duke Alexander suggested, but that is highly unlikely.

Another line that is getting repetative is "Four labs repeated the tests and got the same results." If the tissue were switched, then why would the labs get different results from the samples from that tissue?

[annaanderson]

I did miss the word "if", but people have accused them. No, it's really not a possibility at all.


We really don't know who got out of Russia alive knowing what, who talked to her, who told her what, either on purpose or inadvertently in conversation. You can't say 'only' they would know. And while we're on 'if's' what 'if' Dassel was a part of a conspiracy to boost her claim for a piece of the money and he told her ahead of time? As FA said, most of her 'memories' were in a 1926 book. Some others were incorrect, and others could have been told her by Russian emigres' who knew the family. There was a LARGE number of them in Europe in those days. But as FA said, this is not another AA discussion thread and if it continues he will lock it. So start a 'what if' thread if this is to continue (his words not mine)

This is where you're in the same boat as me. You're making accusations against Felix while also stating that emigres were feeding her information with no evidence to back it up.
-And while you're on the subject of people using her to cash in on money, you would also have to be accusing Lili Dehn, who was so close to Anastasia as a child.

[Louis_Charles]

I don't understand why it matters what Stalin thought. He never met Anastasia or Anna Anderson. As far as the forum administrator demonstrating that there could have been no conspiracy, no he has not. I've seen no evidence that the tissue and hair were from Anna. If they did indeed get into contact with someone in the hospital, then yes, they would know the tissue sample was from an intestine. No one has bothered to explain how Anderson knew the information she told to Felix Dassel, that Dassel said only very few people knew about. There's too much proof to the contrary. If Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, she would've had to been possessed with her spirit as Grand Duke Alexander suggested, but that is highly unlikely.

Another line that is getting repetative is "Four labs repeated the tests and got the same results." If the tissue were switched, then why would the labs get different results from the samples from that tissue?

It may be repetitive, but that doesn't make it untrue. You are creating an impossible situation. They didn't simply say "intestinal sample" they said "particular part of intestine", making the idea that a Schanzkowska matched it totally implausible. And assuming that the DNA evidence is correct, then the  fact of the matter is that there has to be an explanation for the Dassel incident that involves, sorry, Andersen being fed information. And you offer no credible evidence that a switch occured. Please do not come back at me with graphological evidence or ear measurements. Even during Andersen's lifetime, prior to DNA evidence, these tools were not sufficient to establish her identity as Grand Duchess Anastasia in any court of law into which they were introduced. You make it sound as though everyone of any sense agreed that Andersen was Anastasia, and that simply isn't so. Gilliard and Olga Alexandrovna, to name only two, were closer to her than Felix Dassel, and they failed to recognize her. And while the Anastasians concocted all sorts of theories as to why they didn't recognize Andersen, it is plausible that they (1) acted in good faith and (2) simply didn't recognize her. It is true that Lili Dehn did recognize her, some forty years after last seeing Anastasia Nikolaevna. The time lapse doesn't rule her identification completely out, but it at least makes it more problematic than Gilliard, who actually was with the family until Ekaterinburg, and who met the claimant less than a decade later.

I have no particular axe to grind here. I met Anna Andersen, and she seemed like an eccentric old lady, but relatively harmless (her Charlottesville neighbors would probably have a somewhat different take on the matter). I seriously considered not getting into this debate, because it will never end --- each time someone hits the board with the bright, shiny new theory that there has been a giant conspiracy to deny this woman her identity, we are treated to these assertions that there must have been a switch, and there must have been a conspiracy. I am still awaiting an explanation as to how this happened, and for what reason.

[LisaDavidson]

This is where you're in the same boat as me. You're making accusations against Felix while also stating that emigres were feeding her information with no evidence to back it up.
-And while you're on the subject of people using her to cash in on money, you would also have to be accusing Lili Dehn, who was so close to Anastasia as a child.

Madam Dehn was a friend of the Empress. As such, she was certainly acquainted with Grand Duchess Anastasia, but it's a stretch to say she was "so close" to her. I think this description could have applied only to Anna Virubova out of all of Alexandra's friends.