Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members

[AGRBear]

Martha Jefferson Hospital.

Martha Jefferson Hospital.

Martha Jefferson  Hospital.

.......



 AGRBear

[sparrow]

IS STILL THE SAME EXACT TEST DONE TODAY AND EVERY SINGLE EXPERT IN THE FIELD CONFIRMS THAT THIS TEST IS STILL EXACTLY AS RELIABLE AS EVER. I must INSIST that you provide specific scientific









leads to answers

   


Posts: 88
 Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #275 on: Jul 9th, 2005, 9:42am »  Quote  Modify  

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The following is the begining of an E-mail from Dr. Ginther about his testing of DNA.  Follow the link for the rest of his E-mail:

on Jul 9th, 2005, 9:23am, CuriousOne wrote:July 6, 2005

Dear J.A. Hubert,

I realize from going through my files that there is a large amount of "Romanoff" material there.  In addition, I have copies of lab notebooks that have details of the work (and that I have not been able to find yet.)  Since your questions pertained mostly to the Anna Anderson slide, I will send you the information that surrounds that part of the data.  I do have some caveats.  This work was done over 10 years ago, and so many details are vague to me.  To be completely honest, I had forgotten about some of the experiments and only had my memory jogged by the documents in my files.  In addition, this work was done when DNA forensics was experimental in the truest sense of the word. Of the workers active in mtDNA identification at the time, I would generally believe the work of Mark Stoneking (Penn State), Mark Wilson  (FBI),, Mitch Holland (US Army), Peter Gill and Kevin Sullivan  (Forensic Sci. Service, UK), Also note, the Anderson sequence often referred to is the standard sequence used for most mtDNA comparisons,  It was the first mtDNA sequence done, and Anderson refers to the scientist who led that work, and has nothing to do with Anna Anderson.  So here is the material from my two folders that relates to Anna Anderson:
(See next post)

[Forum Admin]

I also found it interesting how Empress Alexandra's own sister, Elizabeth's, finger did not even match the mtDNA of Empress Alexandra.  

A scientific paper was published on this very point, and you can find it by searching our Forum where is was posted and discussed quite some time ago.  The basic answer is simply that the body believed to be St. Elisabeth's in Jersualem may be that of her companion Varvra. Further, the finger relic has a very unclear provenance of possession, may never have been her's in the first place and was handled by literally many dozens of different people over the years leading to a high possibility of contamination.

[etonexile]

But there is still the possibility of space aliens. Just look at Roswell, New Mexico. Many say there were UFOs there. Just because they can't prove dosen't mean it did not happen.

It's up to the person who "asserts" to prove....Those who believe in a big,lavish conspiracy....Show us your facts...

[Forum Admin]

dear sparrow,

Simply go to Google and Google scholar and search:" "anna anderson" mtDNA Gill" and you will get a large selection of the available literature published.  Also, feel free to call Dr. Teri Melton at Mytotyping Technologies and ask her yourself, as I did.  She did one of the original AA tests, and is recognized by the US federal Court and most State court, and UK courts, as an expert in the field of forensic DNA analysis.  She herself told me that the test done then is the exact same and is still reliable.  you should also please search this very Survivor's section as I have ALREADY PROVIDED ALL THIS MATERIAL you asked for several times before. YOU are the one who needs to do the catching up yourself. WE have already answered the questions you are now asking

[RealAnastasia]

Yes. If you need some scientific resource, "Google" is a good search engine to find them. I find all that it's in Anna Anderson's case in "Google".  I made it when I started to do my research in this case and FA is right. If you add Grand-Duchesse to the words he pointed, you'll also have some good info in French.

"Google" is excellent. Use it!  

RealAnastasia.

[annaanderson]

A scientific paper was published on this very point, and you can find it by searching our Forum where is was posted and discussed quite some time ago.  The basic answer is simply that the body believed to be St. Elisabeth's in Jersualem may be that of her companion Varvra. Further, the finger relic has a very unclear provenance of possession, may never have been her's in the first place and was handled by literally many dozens of different people over the years leading to a high possibility of contamination.

I will answer with the same remark you often throw at us, "You can't prove there was contamination."

[helenazar]

I will answer with the same remark you often throw at us, "You can't prove there was contamination."

Au contraire... you most certainly can prove it. The mtDNA extracted from the finger they thought was Elizabeth's did not match Prince Philip's mtDNA, which it should have if the finger indeed belonged to Elizabeth. In the science world this is called "using a control" to ensure that your results are not confounded.

If your sample does not match the control, then it is the wrong sample, plain and simple... In the case of the finger, it was either contaminated or just belonged to someone other than Elizabeth (unless you will now argue that Prince Philip was too part of this conspiracy). So there you have the proof, unlike in AA's case, where you don't, in fact you have quite the opposite.

Annaanderson, you really need to do some more reading and preparation on the subject if you are going to argue this case effectively (and in order to avoid sounding like you have no idea what you are talking about)... Maybe those who don't really understand this  will buy into your arguments, but not anyone who has even the least amount of analytical ability...

[AGRBear]

I also found it interesting how Empress Alexandra's own sister, Elizabeth's, finger did not even match the mtDNA of Empress Alexandra.  

It is easy to osterize posters if they do not have your own opinion based on what knowlege you have.  It takes a great deal more effort to help posters to understand why a person believes what they believe.

And, yes,  many of you have posted your knowlege with sources and opinions over and over and over again.  But these posts are usually tangled into old threads and using the "search" isn't going to help the newbies because some of the threads are locked down and "search" will not pull them out to be viewed.  And, too, what key word would they use for so general a subject?  So, I think they would appreciate our patience and perhaps some sources.

For over a year, certain posters have been telling me that I needed to read more about DNA.  I dug in and asked questions.  Helen, with great difficulty since I knew nothing about DNA or that there was something called mtDNA, tried to explain DNA tests to me.  Over on one of the DNA threads,  my lack of knowledge is shown in my questions.  But,  I think if you read them and Helen's answers you might understand the DNA to a certain degree.

As to the two fingers found.  One was believed to have been the severed finger of GD Elisabeth, sister to Alexandra, and the other was thought to have been Tsarina Alexandra found in or near the Four Brother's Mine.

It appears that the finger which was thought to have been GD Elisabeth may not have been and most likely was the finger of the nun who was a friend of GD Elisabeth and with her when she died in the pit with the others.

The finger which Sokolov carried to England in a box was not Alexandra's even though Sokolov believed to the day he died that it was.

I had not realized there were two fingers once and FA made it very clear to me that there were two fingers.

What is not clear is why a DNA test was not done to prove the finger was the nun's.  Perhaps it impossible since it was considered "contaminated" and results could be confirmed who's finger it was?  

Anyway,  after my few posts on the subject,  other poster wrote and wondered if it was proven that the remains thought to be GD Elisabeth was made and did it match Prince Phlip's.

I do not recall the answer to this, perhaps Helen or FA can, again, provide us with an answer.

Thank you.

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

I will answer with the same remark you often throw at us, "You can't prove there was contamination."

To address the specifics here:
1. The AA sample was taken under hospital protocols from a known patient and handled by a very small number of people, literally only one or two (the surgeon and the pathologist, maybe one nurse) in controlled hospital circumstances. It was then stored in a tightly controlled environment with very limited access under a code number and not a name in a secure place. The possibility of outside contamination is VERY small and almost impossible.

2. the finger purported to be GD Elisabeth's relic is of unclear provenance, was handled by literally dozens if not hundred of unknown people in unknown circumstances and stored quite literally in an unlocked box for decades and taken out dozens of times to be handled in an uncontrolled and unsecure environment. the possibility of contamination is huge and more likely than not.

[AGRBear]

Let's explore the timeline between the surgery of AA in Aug of 1979 to the delivery of the intestine sample to Dr. Gill on 29 June 1994.


20 Aug 1979 -  AA was rushed to Martha Jefferson Hospital where Dr. Richard Shrum operated on her small intestine obstruction which prove to have turned gangrene.  Massie tells us the details on p. 194-5 THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:  

>>The procedure of sending the tissue to the pathology lab was sent 5 inches of intestines.  This tissue was divided into five one-inch segments which were bathed in a issue preservative called formalin, sealed inside a block of paraffin wax one inch square and half an inch deep, and placed in a small blue and white box on a shelf filled with other similar boxes containing tissue specimens.<<

12 Feb 1984   - Anna Anderson Manahan died.  Her body was cremated the same day.

July 1992 - Dr. William Maples stated that he believed Anastasia was the missing  Grand Duchess and not Maria whom the Russians claimed was missing

22 Sept 1992 Syd Mandelaum writes to several major laboratories looking for genetic samples of AA's to test at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory or at Harvard Medical School  because he was writing a book on DNA and wanted to add it's usage to forenic in regards to AA.  The one letter went to Martha Jefferson Hospital where AA had surgery.

p. 195 Massie tells us the answer Mandelaum receive to his inquiry:

>>...Martha Jefferson Hospital, replied to Mandelbaun that "we have nothing here that could be useful to you."

Klier and Mingay give us more information on this request p. 203
>>...At the time the hospital was in a chaotic administrative state due to a major refurbishment, and although officals conducted a cursory search of their files, they did not find any recoreds under  either of those names.  Hospital officals claim they did not intentionally mislead Mandelbaum.  Indeen there was no tissue sample stored in the hospital under either name proposed by Mandelbaum.<<  The names he had given were Anna Anderson or Mrs. Jack Manahan.

22 Nov 1992 Mary DeWitt,  p. 196, >>a student of forensic pathology of the University of Texas<< asked the hospiital for some tissue because she'd like to stuy it for a paper.   They reply from Penny Jenkins was: >>"No, I can't help you."<<  Mary DeWitt did not give up.  She contacted Lovell asking for his help.  Lovel received a letter from John Manahan's cousin Fred Lowvel who granted Lovel authority to dispose of the tissue.

 Dec 1992, two days after Mary DeWitt's first letter  - Dr. Willi Korte conatacted Jenkins.  Her story was different to Korte.  She told him that they did have compartitive samples of AA.  
p. 206 of Kleir and Mingay:
>>Korte's...phone calls galvanized the hospital's acting director of medical records, Penny Jenkins, to take a more detailed look at the hospital's patient database. She made a through search of the viles and the pathology departemtn's vaults  and found that, indeed, a tissue sample from Anderson was held there, albeit under the name of Anatasia Manahan.<<  This was found Dec 1992one month after his first phone call.

.....[in part]....
AGRBear

Follow the thread of this quote and you will find the rest of the timeline which surrounded the sample of intestines from the time of the operation and to the time when Dr. Gill received the sample.

As to the fingers,  I don't recall the thread or threads in which they were discussed.

AGRBear

[helenazar]

2. the finger purported to be GD Elisabeth's relic is of unclear provenance, was handled by literally dozens if not hundred of unknown people in unknown circumstances and stored quite literally in an unlocked box for decades and taken out dozens of times to be handled in an uncontrolled and unsecure environment. the possibility of contamination is huge and more likely than not.

And the proof of this is the fact that the DNA from the finger did not match Elizabeth's relative Prince Philip's, which it most certainly should have matched if this DNA sequence belonged to Elizabeth.

2+2 always equals 4...

And if you are still not following this, annaanderson - it means that the sequence from the finger was not Elizabeth's - whether due to contamination or plain mistaken "finger identity"- this fact is for certain...

So you will need to come up with another more original argument, a-anderson, as we have seen this one before many times and it doesn't have a leg to stand on... Good luck!

[AGRBear]

Could you give us some of the sources which talks about this test on the one finger which was thought to have been GD Elisabeth's and the one finger thought to have been Tsarina Alexandra's which Sokolov carried to England to show King George so posters can read the results for themselves?

AGRBear

[helenazar]

Could you give us the source which talks about this test on the one finger which was thought to have been GD Elisabeth's and the one finger which was found in the box Sokolov carried to England to show King George so posters can read the results for themselves.

AGRBear

What are you talking about? There was no test done on any other finger, I don't know where you got that from. And you have read and talked about the test on the NY finger at least a thousand times, go back to the DNA thread and find it.

[AGRBear]

,,,[in part]...

2+2 always equals 4...

This is where I need to add:

The numbers "2" and/or  "2" may have been incorrectly entered into the equation.

So every equation is reproduced and studied from all different angles to make sure the numbers entered are correct.

If one of the experts dicover one of the numbers was not "2" but "3" then the equation needs to be redone.

2 + 3 = 5.

Please, allow those who think an error may have occured have an open discussion.

There is no harm in allowing this kind of discussion.  In fact,  it can help clear away some misconceptions.  Or, the discussion may prove an error did occur.  Would this be so terrible?  No.  We'd just have to regroup just like the world did when it was discovered the world wasn't flat.

Either way, the path to truth is always the best road to travel, even if a lot of sides roads were taken along the way.

Am I sounding like a USA poster who understands the right of free speach.  You bet I am.  

AGRBear