Author Topic: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members  (Read 24095 times)

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2005, 10:40:03 AM »
Yes, Helen,
Bear has the most annoying habit of forgetting the questions she has asked over and over and over, and to blurt out questions without bothering to find the answers herself. She seems to prefer that the rest of us do the research for her...gets most tiresome.

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2005, 10:44:35 AM »
Quote

What are you talking about? There was no test done on any other finger, I don't know where you got that from. And you have read and talked about the test on the NY finger at least a thousand times, go back to the DNA thread and find it.



I thought there were two fingers.  Did my memory fail me on this subject?  It has been a long hard and busy couple of weeks for Bear and my wooly brain is rather weary and I could have made a mistake in thinking there were two fingers.  

Was there one finger or two?


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2005, 11:40:26 AM »
I believe it was FA who told me that there were two fingers.



Here is a photo of the one thought to have been Tsarina Alexandra's which Sokolov carried to England for King George.

AGRBear

PS  LisaDavidson labeled this finger as #1 in her post #49 found below which gives us the needed information.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2005, 11:42:07 AM »


Here is what Summers and Mangold wrote next to the illustration of the finger which I've shown above this post.

I am not the one who started the subject on the finger/fingers.

Quote
Yes, Helen,
Bear has the most annoying habit of forgetting the questions she has asked over and over and over, and to blurt out questions without bothering to find the answers herself. She seems to prefer that the rest of us do the research for her...gets most tiresome.



I am merely trying to give information to the person who did ask the question.

Quote
I also found it interesting how Empress Alexandra's own sister, Elizabeth's, finger did not even match the mtDNA of Empress Alexandra.  


I will not apologize for  showing patience to a newbie on a subject which we, who have been around for some time,  have discussed many times.  Why?  Because it's new to them and I remember what it was like when I first posted.  


So, back to the topic of fingers.

Was there just one finger?  A simple yes or no would be nice.

If there was just one finger then this [one shown in post #47] is the finger which was tested?

If this is not the finger, then there were two fingers.  And, the one tested was the other, not shown in my photo above, which people first believed was GD Elisabeth's.  And it was the other finger, not shown above, which was tested.

As for finding information.  That is not always a quick and easy task.

 I did have to go find the photo, copy it, put it in photo bucket, copy it and then come back here....   That could not be accomplished in two seconds.

No one has all the information at their fingertips, especially not I, since this is just a hobby and not my occupation.

And,  I will repeat:  I do not recall the thread where the fingeer/fingers were discussed nor can I find it using "finger" in the search.  Does anyone remember because I'd like to find and pull the URL into this discussion so others can follow that thread and read what we've discussed.   I am terribly sorry to have to ask for assistance but I do need help in finding the posts.  

I continue to think this is a different finger mentioned by FA:

Quote

A scientific paper was published on this very point, and you can find it by searching our Forum where is was posted and discussed quite some time ago.  The basic answer is simply that the body believed to be St. Elisabeth's in Jersualem may be that of her companion Varvra. Further, the finger relic has a very unclear provenance of possession, may never have been her's in the first place and was handled by literally many dozens of different people over the years leading to a high possibility of contamination.


I'd be glad to post a photo of this finger if it is, in fact, a different finger.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2005, 01:56:53 PM »
Clarification on the fingers:

1. Finger #1 was recovered during the Civil War by the Whites and was presumed to be Alexandra's. To my knowledge, it was never tested and is presumably buried in the wall of the church in Brussels. I believe Summers and Mangold said it could just as easily have been Botkin's finger.

2. Finger #2 was tested and found not to match the mtDNA sample provided by HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, as would any finger found from Alexandra's siblings. What this test proved is that Finger #2 could not have come from a child of Alice of Hesse (born HRH Princess Alice of Great Britain, et al). Which means Finger #2 was not Ella's.

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2005, 02:18:14 PM »
THANKYOU, Lisa.

Quote
Clarification on the fingers:

1. Finger #1 was recovered during the Civil War by the Whites and was presumed to be Alexandra's. To my knowledge, it was never tested and is presumably buried in the wall of the church in Brussels. I believe Summers and Mangold said it could just as easily have been Botkin's finger.

2. Finger #2 was tested and found not to match the mtDNA sample provided by HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, as would any finger found from Alexandra's siblings. What this test proved is that Finger #2 could not have come from a child of Alice of Hesse (born HRH Princess Alice of Great Britain, et al). Which means Finger #2 was not Ella's.



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2005, 06:10:08 PM »
Quote
THANKYOU, Lisa.



AGRBear



I will probably get into trouble for making this point, but you do realize that the explanation that Lisa just gave is exactly the same point that people make about the Andersen DNA test? When Andersen's DNA was compared to Prince Philip's, it demonstrated that she could not have been related to Princess Alice either.

Regards,

Simon
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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2005, 06:20:34 PM »
Simon, Simon, Simon....

For SHAME, you KNOW better than to inject reason, logic and critical thinking into the Anna Anderson discussion!
;D
:o
8)

Offline Merrique

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2005, 06:32:36 PM »
Quote
Simon, Simon, Simon....

For SHAME, you KNOW better than to inject reason, logic and critical thinking into the Anna Anderson discussion!
 ;D
 :o
 8)


The FA is right you know Simon.All the AA discussions are about space aliens,conspiracy theories,switched intestines and all other sorts of devilish things.Reason, logic and critical thinking have no place here. ;D :D ;)
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.:D

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2005, 06:37:13 PM »
Quote


I will probably get into trouble for making this point, but you do realize that the explanation that Lisa just gave is exactly the same point that people make about the Andersen DNA test? When Andersen's DNA was compared to Prince Philip's, it demonstrated that she could not have been related to Princess Alice either.

Regards,

Simon


Yes,   I understand what Lisa said about DNA of the  finger #2 and that it did not link to Prince Philip, therefore, the #2 finger could not have been GD Elisabeth's.  Did I say otherwise?  No.

AGRBear


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2005, 06:40:44 PM »
Quote

The FA is right you know Simon.All the AA discussions are about space aliens,conspiracy theories,switched intestines and all other sorts of devilish things.Reason, logic and critical thinking have no place here. ;D :D ;)


What should not have space here is redicule for those who think differently than you or I.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2005, 06:46:31 PM »
Here is what the creator of this thread wanted to discuss.

Quote
Dear Friends:

                        I couldn't help but laugh when I read the last post and the last thread opened in the "Survivor" forum. It seems that the DNA group thinks that if those who doesn't believe in this DNA proof wanted not to post here for a while is for we have not arguments, or for we felt offended or "hurts in our feelings".

                           Well; speaking for myself I can assure that nothing of this happens. I have LOTS of arguments, and solids ones for you know that I undertake a research by myself and not being biased, for in fact, I tryed to convince very hardly the experts who helped me in the research that AA was really FS without any possitive results . I even spoke with a geneticist expert in DNA , and after reading all the material about the fact ("for", "against", the fact itself , this is the page with "the match-not match thing" who was posted here (I think that by Helen, but I'm not sure), and all the Robert K. Massie's chapters about the DNA test, and he agreed with me in the possibility of a switch. For him, is not a so strange thing...And of course I'm aware this is CRIMINAL! A person who does such a thing is a criminal, no doubt! And this is for that, that my geneticist friend suggest me to "get away the whole thing". He warned me if, I keep in the path I am now, I must be compelled to accuse someone and this is the thing I can't do...at least this was his advice. If I said that I suspect that the culprit of the switch was "X" or "Z", I could be accused of false testimony. And this is not for I'm lying or hallucinating about an inexistent switcher...You know very well that if it was a switcher, he or she wouldn't let the proofs here and there to all to discover them. Something there is no a single proof.

For example: all people here knows that Al Capone was the murder of Saint-Valentin Massacre, of dean O'Banion and other very well known rivals. You also know that he was the man who was in the "alcool business" during the "Dry-Laws" era. Well...Judges COULDN'T found him culprit of NONE of those criminal acts. Why? There were not simply a single proof of them. They must found him culprit for...not paying his impositive bills. It was the only way to get him in jail.

So...Do you suppose that the switcher (if there is one) would let proofs of what he/her or they have done? If it was an intelligent switcher he would not.

Another thing, FA: if we are not suspicious of a think we could never find a criminal act. So, your state in the "Call all of Judges" about not posting any suspicion is not valid. If we already know all the answers and the facts in AA-FS-AN case ...What's the challenge to "call all the judges"? A natural death case, could become an "supposed to be murder" one when someone doubts about it being a natural death. Without suspicion...what's the matter to have a trial, here?

As for "our hurt feelings". I'm not hurt. Not now. Why I should be hurt? Only for you disagrees with me in this case? Nonsense. But I know that I will post in this thread once in a while, for I'm not interested in starting endless discussions and accusations of day-dreamer. No, thank you.

You must guess this is for I've not arguments. The persons who emailed me privaltely knows that it's far from this. I'll not participate for the reasons I gave above and for when I started my thread "How about?..." nobody did what the thread was created for: research. All people started to discuss their own opinions about AA being AN, FS or Good in heaven, inestead to go find anthropologistic experts, geneticist, etc. The thread became the same than all the others in the "Survivor" forums. So, the "DNA Klan" opened another thread for themselves...The one of the online trial.

I'm searching supporters in order to oppen another website about Anna's case. A site that wouldn't be in any way a mere comparison of some good taken pics of AA-FS and AN.

RealAnastasia.




AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2005, 06:54:12 PM »
Quote
Simon, Simon, Simon....

For SHAME, you KNOW better than to inject reason, logic and critical thinking into the Anna Anderson discussion!
 ;D
 :o
 8)


I think this thread can be discussed with reason, logic and critical thinking.  Is there any reason why it cannot?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2005, 08:39:18 PM »
Quote

I think this thread can be discussed with reason, logic and critical thinking.  Is there any reason why it cannot?

AGRBear


There is no reason why it "cannot", however, sadly, it "is not"...

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Re: Anastasia's Supporter Among the Forum Members
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2005, 09:34:59 PM »
Quote

Yes,   I understand what Lisa said about DNA of the  finger #2 and that it did not link to Prince Philip, therefore, the #2 finger could not have been GD Elisabeth's.  Did I say otherwise?  No.

AGRBear





I posted before I was clear about the fact that you do not think Andersen was Anastasia, and that you do accept the DNA evidence. I apologize if you took this as a sarcastic remark. It wasn't meant to be.
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