Author Topic: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef  (Read 116179 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline britt.25

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 12:31:52 PM »
So you think, Anna was not his mistress and it was only said? Do you think, it was rather a normal friendship or something?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

CFH_Mexico

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 12:58:05 PM »
There is an interesting link "Hapsburg etiquette" and I would like to quote a few points written by CountessKate:

...I don't think the etiquette of any European court in the 19th century was anything but rather dull.  Court etiquette originated in the structures of power and who got access to the ruler, who was the fount of patronage; it centred and showcased the ruler and created an environment of hierachical deference.... Court etiquette dictated great formality and requirements for precedence, a lot of very dull socializing with the higher nobility, and a great deal of dressing up.  The young noblewomen who lead the rather relaxed life described in 1913 didn't do so at court - there they would be expected to behave in a much more 'proper' sort of way,..."

I would add court etiquette and morality were hand in hand. I sincerely do not think that Kaiser Franz Joseph broke any of the codes of ethic, moral or etiquette that he himself so harschly followed and impossed.

I think that many of the myths regarding Kaiser Franz Joseph's 'marriage disloyalties' or sporadic ex-marital relationships are only myths. He had no other intimate relationship than with his wife whom, we know, he loved very much.

Offline MarieCharlotte

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1335
  • Sophie Charlotte (1847-1897)
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2006, 04:33:03 PM »
I find the subject interesting for a film, a comedy and for general gossip. Emperor Franz Joseph was one of the most conservative men of his times. We must remember that the "Victorian code of ethics" was in its strongest moment. There is absolutely no proof that the emperor had any illegitimate son or daughter.

It is true that the Emperor was a lonely man, most of the time abandoned by his wife Elisabeth, that he loved opera, theatre and music. He was surrounded by artists and beautiful women but there is absolutely no proof that he had any relationship with any one of them.

His profound catholic faith and strong moral values, which he also imposed to the court, did not permit him to have extra marital relationships.


I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. Like almost every other monarch of his time, also Franz Joseph had extra-martial relationships. You are definitely right that he was conservative and had a strong faith, but nevertheless he cheated on his wive. Why do you think that he bought houses for his most famous mistresses Anna Nahowski and Katharina Schratt next to Schönbrunn? You can't be so naive so believe that he only had tea with these women. It's also not true that there is no proof of the emperor's relationships. There are the diaries of Anna Nahowski in which she decribes the underwear of Franz Joseph. There are also documents of some of his servants in which you can read that the emperor left Schönbrunn secretly in the early morning to see Anna - why do you think he did this? Just to say good morning? And why did he give her over one million Euro when he seperated from her? Because he liked her so much? 

Just today I watched a discussion of a group of experts of the Habsburg family. They also talked about Franz Joseph's intimate realtionships to other women. And believe me: They know much more about this topic than we do. They said that everyone knew about this, but is was accepted, because he was the emperor.
Yesterday Austrian televison broadcasted a little film about Anna and Katharina - and everyone is convinced that these women were Franz Joseph's mistresses.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 04:37:29 PM by MarieCharlotte »
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Yseult

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 04:45:52 PM »
CFH Mexico...I disagree with you ;) I have not a proof about the extra-marital relationships of Franz Joseph, since he had not "official mistress" and he never recognize illegitimate issue. But I´m pretty sure he had his flirtations before his marriage and after his marriage. When he was young, he fell in love with three women, at least...princess Anna of Prussia, Elisabeth of Habsburg daughter of the Hungarian Palatine and Elisabeth of Bavaria. And, until he was bethroted to Elisabeth, Sissi, he had relationships with the "higienical´s countesses". So, he was not a man without feelings or without instincts.

Remember there was a lot of gossip when Sissi run away from Vienna for the first time. It was said she had contracted a venereal illness from her husband. After this, Sissi was her wife but she was always far away from him. For sure I was in love with his reluctant empress, but, if you think, they were apart for years. The relationship with Anna Nahowski don´t seems a platonical relationship. Maybe he had a platonical relationship with Katharina Schratt...maybe! ;)

Offline britt.25

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 01:39:31 AM »
Dear CFH Mexico,

As you expressed in your message, you don´t hold that opinion that emperor Franz Joseph had ex-marital relationships, especially because of the strict etiquette of the court, his profound catholic belief, and other points you mentioned. Do you only conclude that Franz Joseph did not have any relationships or do you think this as well about other emperos before him? As far as I know there were quite a lot well known Habsburg emperors, who were known for having mistresses and also illegitimate issue, which was sometimes also acknowledged by them. For example people like the emperor Karl V or Philipp IV of Spain, were known for being very strong catholics, but despite of that they had official and famous illegitimate children. So your opinion only concerns Franz Joseph?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2006, 03:15:15 AM »
Two more picture of Helene, I have found. Has anybody others, maybe from her mother?




La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

CFH_Mexico

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 11:01:45 AM »
Dear Britt.25

It is well known and documented that certain Habsburgs had illegitimate children, you are right about Charles V, who was the father of "Jeromin" later called "Don Juan de Austria" There were other members of the family weather Emperors or family members who had illegitimate children.

I don't pretend to be a moralist but the "AEIOU tu Felix Austriae Nube" was partly responsible in certain cases to extra marital relationships. One must take into account that an Emperor, at the time, had lots of rights and also obligations. Nonetheless they did not have the right to marry "because they were in love". They were married because of political convenience. Very often they had no choice. If it worked and after their wedding they fell in love they were lucky. If not... some had extra marital relationships. Most of them very discrete. I don’t want to enter into what other royal families did or did not do with respect to extra marital relationships in Europe. As a person who has studied the Habsburgs with certain depth I can say that extramarital relationships with the Habsburgs where much less frequent than wit other families in Europe.

In the case Kaiser Franz Joseph I sincerely do not think he had illegitimate children or extra marital relationships. Not him.  Wrong time wrong gosyp.

Offline Daniela

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 239
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2006, 05:59:09 AM »
Dear Britt.25

It is well known and documented that certain Habsburgs had illegitimate children, you are right about Charles V, who was the father of "Jeromin" later called "Don Juan de Austria" There were other members of the family weather Emperors or family members who had illegitimate children.

I don't pretend to be a moralist but the "AEIOU tu Felix Austriae Nube" was partly responsible in certain cases to extra marital relationships. One must take into account that an Emperor, at the time, had lots of rights and also obligations. Nonetheless they did not have the right to marry "because they were in love". They were married because of political convenience. Very often they had no choice. If it worked and after their wedding they fell in love they were lucky. If not... some had extra marital relationships. Most of them very discrete. I don’t want to enter into what other royal families did or did not do with respect to extra marital relationships in Europe. As a person who has studied the Habsburgs with certain depth I can say that extramarital relationships with the Habsburgs where much less frequent than wit other families in Europe.

In the case Kaiser Franz Joseph I sincerely do not think he had illegitimate children or extra marital relationships. Not him.  Wrong time wrong gosyp.

Hello, CFH Mexico!

I would like to know your opinion about relationship between Kaiser Franz Joseph and Fräulein Katharina Schratt?

Daniela
Izberi svojo ljubezen, in ljubi svoj izbor!

CFH_Mexico

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 05:13:34 PM »
A lot has been speculated about the relationship that Kaiser Franz Joseph had wit different women. The relationship he had with Ms schratt is certainly one of the most commented. From what I have read, and heared is that Ms. Schratt was an extreemly clever and cultivated person. Her charm and story telling won the friendschip of the emperor. She had all the insights of the opera house, theatre and artist world.

Kaiser Franz Joseph loved cultivated people and was always surounded by them.

He had a special fondness for ms. Schratt, I would say a real friendship. I sincerely believe that there was nothing more than that. All the rest is gossip, for which we humans have a lot of time, and imagination.

umigon

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 05:58:53 PM »


Although not as well documented on the more modern Hapsburgs as many of you are, I had always thought, as a well known fact, that Franz Josef had several affairs during his lifetime. I even thought his wife Sisi not only did know about them, but that she also encouraged them. Didn't she call Schratt "the friend" in a somewhat ironic way? And I might be wrong, but she wrote to someone that Franz Josef was in love with Katharina and that was great (although this part I might have understood it wrongly, I can't really recall where I got it from).

Franz Josef might have been religious, but so were (and much more fanatically), kings in the 16th and 17th centuries, and they indeed had illegitimate children, as it has been posted earlier. Meaning no offense, CFH, I don't think religious principles should be shown as an absolut theory to prove Franz's faithfulness.

I think it's much more probable that he DID have this lovers. I think it's natural. By all accounts he was a passionate man (let's remember that one of the only times in his life in which he defied his mother was when choosing Elisabeth as a wife, and they didn't know each other, so her intelligence or culture wasn't obviously what made him take that decision). How could a man how was sensible to woman beauty, not have a lover when his own wife was refusing to let him in her bed? And given that this man was not only atrractive, but also powerful... I think it's just the perfect combination.

Silja

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2006, 09:11:07 AM »

He had a special fondness for ms. Schratt, I would say a real friendship. I sincerely believe that there was nothing more than that. All the rest is gossip, for which we humans have a lot of time, and imagination.

Where Anna Nahowski is concerned, you have nevertheless not come forward with any argumentation disproving the evidence. As has already been mentioned above, there's Anna's detailed diary and the gifts of money. Moreover, the villa they bought with the emperor's money even had secret doors and all that to keep the matter as secret as possible. Franz Joseph's relationship with Katharina Schratt, on the other hand, which was probably only a friendship - though you can never be sure of course - was made much less a secret of.

Offline britt.25

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2006, 10:13:48 AM »
Are there any pictures of Annas husband to compare it with the daughter? And are there any of her son Franz J.?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Yseult

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2007, 01:16:30 PM »
Hello!
I don´t know if this is the right place to start a thread about Helen Baltazzi, baroness Vetsera. The lady was not a royal, but gossip (an intimate relationship with emperor Franz Joseph, an attempt to became the mistress of crown prince Rudolf...) and facts (the tragical death of her daughter Mary with crown prince Rudolf in Mayerling) made her a very intriguing and fascinating woman.
I wish to know more about her viennese´s years, all this time triying to be admitted into the high society and the way things turned against her.

Offline Greenowl

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2007, 01:51:30 PM »
Good idea Yseult! She was a fascinating woman and a very unfortunate one. What has always intrigued me is whether or not she knew about the relationship between her daughter and Crown Prince Rudolf, that ended in the tragedy of Mayerling. She was treated very badly by the court at that time, as I think they suspected that she was aware of the situation and encouraged it (which would have been in keeping with her pervious behaviour). The house where she lived in Saleisanergasse (spelling??) in Vienna was demolished in 1916. A sad fact is that Helene Vetsera outlived her four children….her eldest son, Stanislaus, died in the Burg Theatre fire, her youngest daughter, Mary, was murdered in Mayerling, her eldest daughter, Hanna, died in childbirth a few years later, while her youngest son, Franz, was killed in the First World War. As far as I know, (I stand open to correction on this one) after the death of her son Franz she lived her remaining years in the house of his daughter Nancy, Baroness Vetsera. I don't believe that she was ever a mistress of Emperor Franz-Joseph (she would have been far too indiscreet for his liking) but perhaps you can prove me wrong in this regard???? Her brothers were excellent horsemen and horse breeders. If anyone wants information about their equine interests, success in the Epsom Derby, the stud in Hungary etc I will be more than happy to provide it, although I generally find that most members of the forum do not share my interest in horses, thus I shall not start boring everyone unless requested to do so....

Yseult

  • Guest
Re: Mistresses and illegetimate children of Emperor Franz Josef
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2007, 03:46:00 PM »
Greenowl, you have provide us a very good briefing about all the tragedies suffered by Helen. It is unnatural for a mother to bury all of her children. I wish to imagine her as an old ruined woman finding a little measure of hapiness in her grandchildren...the son and daughter of Hanna (Edouard and Maria) and the three daughters of Feri by his wife Margit von Bissingen (Ferdinanda "Nancy", Alexandrine "Alitschi" and Eleonora "Nora").
Helen had a bad reputation...but I don´t know why. As far as I know, she was a virginal creature when she married Albin von Vetsera, and it seems she was a faithful wife to her "freiherr". One of her sisters, Marie Virginie (Bibi), was a woman who divorced her first husband and marry for a second time, but the others -Lizzie Baltazzi Nugent and Evelyne Baltazzi von Stockau- were well married women. I wonder why Helen was linked to both Franz Joseph and Rudolf...I find it really amazing!