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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Questions re Jane Grey
« on: October 06, 2005, 12:06:40 PM »
Hi all.  :D

I just have one or two questions regarding Jane Grey that I have been searching in vain for answers for some time. Perhaps someone here can enlighten me.

Firstly, is Lady Jane regarded as an official Queen of England? If there is ever another Queen Jane, will she be Jane II?

Why did she sign things 'Jane the Queen' which was the manner of a Queen consort back then, instead of Jane R?

Was her mother, Frances Brandon, not annoyed to be passed over in Jane's favour in Edward VI' 'Devise for the Succession'? Also, had Jane lasted as Queen, what sort of positions do you think her parents would have occupied at her court?

Thanks in advance!  :)
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helenazar

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2005, 01:08:57 PM »
PL, that was five questions, not one or two  ;)

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Firstly, is Lady Jane regarded as an official Queen of England?


It seems that she is, because her name appears in every Kings and Queens of England book....

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 Was her mother, Frances Brandon, not annoyed to be passed over in Jane's favour in Edward VI' 'Devise for the Succession'?


It didn't seem that it was an issue for her. I believe that she knew that she can rule through her daughter anyway, without the burdens of being a "real" monarch... I think that the reason that Frances was passed over was because Jane still had the chance of having a male heir, while Frances didn't (?).

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... had Jane lasted as Queen, what sort of positions do you think her parents would have occupied at her court?
 


Puppetmasters  ;)



Offline Kimberly

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2005, 01:21:27 PM »
I can only PRESUME that she is officially Queen, she is always in the lists of UK rulers after Edward and before Mary.  Northumberland proclaimed her Queen and she was officially proclaimed Queen to the people of London on 10 th July. She lodged in the Tower prior to her coronation and The Marquess of Winchester placed the crown on her head in the State Apartments, so I guess she was "crowned".
Do you think that the name Jane would be avoided by future royals? I remember reading somewhere that Richard is on the "names to be avoided"list ???
I would like to think that had Jane remained Queen she would have quietly put her extremely abusive parents out to pasture somewhere but that is wishful thinking on my part.
Off topic, but while I was looking through one of my books I found this statement; One of Northumberland's sons stated in a letter that, Edward (VI) was buried privately in a paddock adjoining the Palace of Greenwich. Northumberland then substituted a "look-a-like", who had been murdered, to be seen by the people, this look-a-like was then buried in the altar tomb of the Henry VII Chapel. If this is to be believed my heart goes out to Jane, she never stood a chance against the utterly ruthless and vile Northumberland.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2005, 04:11:42 PM »
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PL, that was five questions, not one or two  ;)


 



Well, I never quibble over numbers - Maths is not my strongest subject.  ;)

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I've heard that rumour re Edward too Kim. Poor Jane. Then again, she seemed quite a resolute queen. Northumberland was wary of leaving London to confront Mary because he thought the Council would abandon him, and he wanted the Duke of Suffolk to go instead. Jane flatly refused and ordered him to go, which he did. When Lord Pembroke abondoned the Tower, she sent armed guards after him and ordered that the keys of the Tower be given to her every night.

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-Sherlock Holmes

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bell_the_cat

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!Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2005, 01:11:42 PM »
Quote

It didn't seem that it was an issue for her. I believe that she knew that she can rule through her daughter anyway, without the burdens of being a "real" monarch... I think that the reason that Frances was passed over was because Jane still had the chance of having a male heir, while Frances didn't (?).



 



As it turned out Frances was probably relieved to be passed over for Jane. She was still of childbearing age however (36!), as she proved when she had two babies with her second husband, Adrian Stokes, whom she married two or three weeks after her daughter's and husband's executions. None of the children of this second marriage survived very long though.


Jane is in the list of monarchs of England on www.royal.gov.uk - they ought to know!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Silja

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2005, 08:59:37 AM »
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Why did she sign things 'Jane the Queen' which was the manner of a Queen consort back then, instead of Jane R?




I have wondered too.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2005, 09:03:59 AM »
Yes, it is odd. I posted a pic of her signature on the Tudor Letters thread. Hmm . . . well, there was no precedent for what a reigning queen should sign. We know that Elizabeth always signed Elizabeth R, but do we know how Mary I signed her name?
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umigon

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2005, 09:08:47 AM »


Mary always signed "Marye the Quene", so it was Elizabeth the one that first started signing with the "R" after her name!

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2005, 09:12:55 AM »
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Mary always signed "Marye the Quene", so it was Elizabeth the one that first started signing with the "R" after her name!


Thanks Umigon. I don't suppose you have a pic of Mary's signature for the Letters thread?

BTW, that way of signing, 'X the Queen' was the accepted way for a Queen consort in those days - Katherine Parr signed 'Katherine the Queen, KP', Anne Boleyn was 'Anne the Queen' etc.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Silja

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2005, 10:03:25 AM »
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Mary always signed "Marye the Quene", so it was Elizabeth the one that first started signing with the "R" after her name!


I didn't know. Very interesting, and very telling! One can only assume then that  Elizabeth was obviously emphasizing the fact that she was ruling in her own right, like her father, who had of course signed as Henry R.

umigon

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2005, 10:14:50 AM »


Very true, I wonder what did Elizabeth sign like during her first years as queen? Maybe she always wrote ER or maybe she decided it afterwards!

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2005, 10:17:25 AM »
I've always seen her signature as 'Elizabeth R' and nothing else. Hmm . . . It's worth noting that Mary, Queen of Scots, always signed things 'Marie R' never 'Marie/Mary the Queen'.

Do we know anything of what contemporary queen regnants in this periods signed as? How did Isabella of Castile sign her name, for example?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

umigon

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2005, 10:29:17 AM »


Both Isabel of Castile and her daughter Juana (the few times she did this after she inherited the Crown) signed : "Yo la Reyna".

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2005, 10:33:51 AM »
What does that mean? 'The Queen'?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Questions re Jane Grey
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2005, 10:36:07 AM »
I think its "I,the Queen" ;)
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