Author Topic: Change of history  (Read 8111 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2005, 08:23:00 PM »
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Well it also could have been under the own initiative of the Ural Soviet. Personally I think Yurovsky was a heartless, cruel man. Had the orders not come from Lenin & the Bolsheviks in Moscow, it really shows how evil the Ural Soviet really was! I also like to think that had Trotsky been in charge instead of Lenin, I think things would have been diferent (but I'm not sure of Lenin's role in the execution) I'm not making judgements or jumping to conclusions, but I think that perhaps if Stalin had been alive, I think he would have passed a death sentence for the czar, at least.


I share your opinions in a whole.

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Offline Tania+

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2005, 10:32:18 PM »
I have a friend in the police department, and his advice about murderers, is never try to out think them, never think you can change their minds.

Once they are obsessed with taking out someone, or many, they will do it, without question. Once they have you cornered, freedom is never again an option.

Remember once you have been taken away from your place of safety, and are taken to a second place with those whose intent is to do grevious harm, that's it!

In other words, TIH and children never had a chance!
I believe also that Yurovsky was a cold, cold heart. He had no love in his heart, or in his life.

Lenin, Trotsky, or Stalin, they all would have done the same thing; they would have killed all the family memers. The issues that affected just the ordinary citizens proved that.

These murderers wanted to erase all of the old society, and build on a totally new society. That's without question.

But, evil begits evil, and that's why the organs in the end, ate themselves!

Tatiana
TatianaA


Offline Teddy

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2005, 01:50:32 AM »
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I read somewhere (I have sooo many books about the IF! Maybe too many...) that the Bolsheviks wanted NO ROMANOV living in Russia any more. This mean that all of them must be killed.


Yes I've read it also that the at least a 100 Romanov descendants must be killed before you could speak about a new and fresh Russia.

Then it makes sence that they also killed the childeren.

But then still there were so many Romanovs they got their freedom back. I always wonder why Helena Petrovna of Serbia was spared. She was with her husband and Ella and was not held as a prisoner.

Or why did the Bolsheviks didn't go to the Crimea to get Maria F, Nicholas N. and Peter and their wifes and their childeren, Xenia, Sandro, Olga A and their kids..

Why had they the oppurtunity to get away?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Teddy »

Offline Belochka

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2005, 02:30:55 AM »
The entire family was doomed when they reached Tobolsk.

To consider improbable scenarios as to what might have transpired is futile - it serves no purpose.

To delve into the disturbed criminal minds of the revolutionaries is equally pointless.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline anna

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2005, 02:55:12 AM »
That is why this thread is called "Change of history"- not surprisingly you get the big What If.

What about Yakovlev? His intension was only to take Nicholas away. The part of this man is still a mystery to me.
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Offline Caleb

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2005, 11:42:51 AM »
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I read somewhere (I have sooo many books about the IF! Maybe too many...) that the Bolsheviks wanted NO ROMANOV living in Russia any more. This mean that all of them must be killed. Ella's assassination speak by itself what would have happened to the girls if they would have remained in Tobolks.  :'(

RealAnastasia.  

Well if the Bolsheviks wanted "no Romanov living in Russia" that still could leave the door open for debate that why didn't the Bolsheviks send the Romanovs abroad, as Kerensky's government had planned to do?

Offline Belochka

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2005, 12:28:57 AM »
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Well if the Bolsheviks wanted "no Romanov living in Russia" that still could leave the door open for debate that why didn't the Bolsheviks send the Romanovs abroad, as Kerensky's government had planned to do?


The key word is "living" ...

As for Kerensky, if he truely wanted to help the I.F. then why arrest them in the first place, as he did with all the top serving Imperial administrators and gendarmes?

Kerensky knew exactly where his sympathies lay ... and it was never favorable towards any of the Imperial representatives his government replaced.

Kerensky could have changed the course of history but he was weak and gutless and only self-serving.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2005, 10:24:53 AM »
I read that a lot of people were surprised to hear OTMAA had been murdered along with N&A. A lot of people even believed OTMAA were still alive through the 1940s. Any truth to that? I can't remember which book I read that in. It was the one where they talked about finding their bones....

Offline isabel

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2005, 03:21:13 PM »
Before Tobolsk, in Tsarkoie.Selo, in march, two companyes of soldiers  waited in front of Alexander Palace the arrival of the revolutionarys. The Empress and her daughter Marie, went out to encouraged them. Marie, out, near her mother, it was very could, she contracted a pneumony wich was going to play importants consequences for all the family.

Days later, the knew that the Duma had decided the IF departure to England, all was arranged. But....Olga, Tatiana, Anastasia and Alexei had just passed the "rougeole" (sorry i don´t know the word in english), and Maria had a high fever because the pneumony, so the travel was delayed. Later, when from the place someone asked to fix the new date for the travel,...children where in good wealth, it was to late, The Duma was not strong enaugh to authorised the departure.

My question is,... had the parents (the parents, not the governement), Nicholas and Alexandra try in this moment, or before, or later, to save their children of the revolution (even if they didn´t supose the tragic end). Their grand mother, aunts and uncles where in Crimea.

Did they try to negociate the departure of the children?, or if Alexei had to stay with them, (because of his illness, and because he was the tsarevich)...of the four girls?

It´s very logical that they wanted to be all the family together, but it is more logical that as devoted parents they tried to save their children of the madness they were living. Even if the girls disliked this idea....it was their obligation as parents, to obliged them to go.

Also, i always asked my self if the grand mother, and relatives tried to bring the children with them.

Or, perhaps noone of them realized the gravity of the situation? I don´t think so.



Offline Caleb

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2005, 04:36:39 PM »
Actually I think that many people were suprised to hear that Alexandra & the children had been executed. It could have been that Lenin upon hearing the news may have thought that just Nicholas had been executed, but not Alexandra, the girls & Alexei as well.

Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2005, 04:37:23 PM »
Isabel, you have a good point. If N&A had realized the danger they were in, they would have found a way to get OTMAA out of Russia before worrying about themselves, I am 100% sure.

Offline isabel

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2005, 03:01:57 AM »
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Actually I think that many people were suprised to hear that Alexandra & the children had been executed. It could have been that Lenin upon hearing the news may have thought that just Nicholas had been executed, but not Alexandra, the girls & Alexei as well.



I don´t think people, actually, is suprised to hear that Alexandra and children were executed. I think that this feeling exists since the fact of Ekaterinburg was know. I think that "people" in general, asumed the assesination of Nicholas as a political fact, perhaps Alexandra´s murdered too, but about the children a feeling of culpability has always envolved their assesination.

Revolutionarys, monarchicals,.....i belive that in their interior it was hard to accept this.

Offline penguin

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2005, 11:45:47 PM »
 because of there time in captivity together up to the point in tolbosk i don't see why they would have seperated, my guess is that they wanted to stay together as much as possible. plus, as cold as the bolsheviks were they (the IF) probably didn't seriously think that any of them (the IF once again) would be killed.

also, there was nothing saying that they had to kill the entire family. in fact, A. and the children were more usefull as pawns for diplomacy with the german government.

all of this is, of couse, imho

Offline Elocin

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2005, 12:49:49 AM »
I am not entirely convinced that the murders of the IF, Ella and others were connected in a planned way.  My theory is that they were all individual situations that got out of hand when way too many people who had way too much to drink started shooting their mouths off and then ended up doing something because they couldn't not do what they said and save face.

I think that tensions and emotions were running high and the Ural Soviet did their thing because it seemed like a good idea.  Then the persons responsible for Ella and co. did their thing; not because of some prime directive from Lenin but more of a ten thousand monkeys at ten thousand typewriters sort of thing happened.

Offline isabel

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Re: Change of history
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2005, 05:54:07 AM »
[
Quote
quote author=penguin link=board=lastdays;num=1128628034;start=25#27 date=10/25/05 at 23:45:47] because of there time in captivity together up to the point in tolbosk i don't see why they would have seperated
, my guess is that they wanted to stay together as much as possible. plus, as cold as the bolsheviks were they (the IF) probably didn't seriously think that any of them (the IF once again) would be killed.

also, there was nothing saying that they had to kill the entire family. in fact, A. and the children were more usefull as pawns for diplomacy with the german government.

all of this is, of couse, imho[/quote]


In my opinion, in the first moment they knew, they were arrested, parents would have to try to send their children out. I am agree thet they didn´t know they were going to be killed, but even unknowing this....

As mother (i have two little children), if i was arrested, i would try to get off my children.

Perhaps, it was not so easier.