Nogai Russian Princes

[james_h]

Hello,

As near as I have been able to figure the following dynasties all stem from the Nogai Khanate....

Yussupov        Khan Yusuf
Urusov            Khan Urus (Tzar of Kasimov)
Koutoumov     Prince Kutum
Chediakov      Prince Chediak
Bayterkov       Prince Bayterek



Family Tree

1.Musa       Khan of the Nogai Khanate, had four sons...


1.Yusuf       Khan of the Nogai Khante
2.Kutum      Prince of the Nogai Khanate
3.Chediak   Prince of the Nogai Khanate
4.Izmail      Khan of the Nogai Khante/ Tzar of Kaimov


4.Izmail Khan of the Nogai/ Tzar of Kazimov Had two sons...
4a. Din Akhmaed = Khan of the Nogai Khante
  4b. Bayterek = Prince of the Nogai Khante
    4c. His Progeny became the Bayterkov Princes
5a. Urus = Khan of the Nogai Khanate
 5b. His Progeny became Urusov Princes


I would have made a tree but couldn't figure out how to do it  

So Questions....
1.What was the rank of superiority amongst these dynasties eg. Russian Princely Dynasties descended from Nogai Khans outranked Russian dynasties descended from Nogai Princes?

2. Where they aware that they were different branches of the same  familiy. The original dynastic surname for all these families was Mangyt.

3. Did they even care?

4. How did they rank in terms of money and posessions, the yusupovs were clearly at the top of that list followed by the Urusovs but what of the other three?

I'm thinking that in terms of rank....
Yusupovs came 1st as they were named directly after a Khan/King
Urusovs 2nd as they were also named after a Khan/King
Koutoumov 3rd as they are named after a Murza/Prince
Chediak 4th as they are named after a Mirza/Prince and Chediak was younger brother of both Yusuf and Kutum. Izmail was the Youngest of the four brothers but eventually became a Khan,
Now of Izmails sons Both were Khans

Din Akhmed   and Urus
Because Din Akhmeds son Bayterek who was only a
Prince would rank Beneath Urus because the Urususov were named after a khan.

I'm thinking Yusupov superiority ended with Zenaide as the superior male claim would have been transferred to the Urusov? In fact I'm thinking After Zenaides marriage rank would be as followed....

1st Urusov
2nd Koutoumov
3rd Chediakov
4th Bayterkov
5th Yusupov

Are any of these Dynasties still extant?

How are they doing today?

[james_h]

opps I meant to post this in the "Russian Noble Families" Board could the moderators of this forum move it for me?

[David_Pritchard]

According to the book Dvoryanskie Rody Rossiiskoi Imperii, Tom III by Stanislaw Dumin, the sons descending in the male line from Edigei Mangit(1352-1419)> Muradin-murza> Okaz-murza> Musa-murza took the following princely titles:

3rd son, Kutum-murza - Prince Kutumov

5th son, Usuf-mursa(d. 1556) - Prince Yusupov

7th son, Sheidyak-murza - Prince Sheidyakov

Son of Izmail-murza, the 8th son, Urus-murza(d. 1610) - Prince Urusov

Only the Princes Yusupov and Urusov were raised to the dignity of Princes of the Russian Empire.

David

[james_h]

what were the others? Counts?

[james_h]

"Raised to the dignity of Princes of the Russian Empire"

That seems odd to me. The Khanate of the Golden Horde ( Ruled by Edege Mangit, Eponymous ancestor of all the Nogai Russian Princely Families)from wich the Nogai Khante and the Five others, Crimea, Astrakhan, Kazan and Sibir Khanate, stem from was in AD600 encompassing about three time the territory of the earth than the Republic of Novgorod and the "Russian Principalities" combined. The nogai Khanate, although its geographical position shifted over time was always roughly the size of todays Romania.

How can a formally ROyal Family be "Raised" to the Position of Prince of the Russian Empire when really the Russian empire was not that much larger, and in my eyes atleast not that much more prestigious than the respective Khanates?

[David_Pritchard]

"Raised to the dignity of Princes of the Russian Empire"  means that after the families and their territories were assimilated into the Russian Empire in the 17th century, they were accorded the status of Princes of the Russian Empire. Not all Tatar Princes were accorded this dignity. Some were simply confirmed in their status as Tatar princes which had a lower precedence in the Russian Empire. There may even have been cases in which the Tatar princes were not even recognised as princes in Romanov Russia.

Conquerers do not have to recognise the formerly ruling families if they do not want to do this. Was this not the case when the Kingdom of Hanover was annexed to Prussia? It was not until some time later that the Hanoverians were officially recognised by the Prussians with a ducal title.

By the way, I believe that the Princes Kutumov and Sheidyakov had not issue.

David

[james_h]

I see what you mean about confirmed Tatar Princes. After checking my resources it appears that out of all 32 Tatar Princely Dynasties only....

Dondoltkov
Dondoukov-Karsakov
Dondoukov-Iziedinov
Mamleiev
Mestchersky
Urusov
Yusupov

Were "Raised" to the dignity of Russian Princes, alot of the others were "Confirmed Tatar Princes" but, interestingly enough I have it recorded that the following Dynasties Were neither "Raised" to the rank of Russian Princes, nor confirmed as Tatar Princes, which is odd....I'll explain why.

Kazansky former rulers of the Kingdom of Kazan
Guirey former rulers of the Kingdom of Crimea
Sibirsky former rulers of the Kingdom of Sibir

I could not find the Dynastic Surname of the Royals of Astrakhan, what was it?

Anyway none of these four dynasties were even recognised as confirmed Tatar Princes!!! Aside from being outrageous, why was this?


Questions
1. I had often heard of them (probably because htey were wealthy)  but what polity were the Mestchersky sovereign of?

2. Who were Dondoltkov, Dondoukov-Karsakov,Dondoukov-Iziedinov, Mamleiev

3. What was so important about the dynasties in question 2 that saw them accorded privileges denied to the  others?

4. It cannot be as simple as, those that joined the Russian Empire "Freely"because the Gurieli of Guria were dragged into the empire kicking and screaming, yet were still accorded the same Aristocratic style as the Bagrationi-Gruzinsky. I believe it was Serene Highness.

[David_Pritchard]

So many very good questions. Let me answer a few here. The Princely Houses of Dondoltkov, Dondoukov-Karsakov, Dondoukov-Iziedinov were not Tatar but Kalmyk princes. The Princes Mamleev were Tatar and confirmed as such by the Russians. The Tatar Princes Mestchersky are descendants of Hussein Sherinsky, the 15th century Prince of Meshera.

The Princes Sibirsky were accorded the status of Princes of the Russian Empire. They were not a prolific familiy so it could be their seeming absence from society that has brought you to the conclusion that they were not recognised. The four children (all of whom seem to have had no issue) of Prince Aleksander Aleksandrovich Sibirsky (1824-1879) were the last of the family.

Best wishes,

David

[David_Pritchard]

According to Dumin's book, the following 32 Tatar houses were confirmed by the Russians in the dignity of Tatar princes:

Akchurin
Bayushev
Beglideev
Bibarsov
Gedianov
Dashkin
Devletkildeev
Diveev
Engalychev
Enikeev
Ingildeev
Isheev
Keykuatov
Kildeshev
Kugushev
Kudashev
Kulunchakov
Kutkin
Kutyev
Maksutov
Mamatkazin-Sakaev
Mamatov
Mamin
Mamleev
Manstrev
Mustafin
Stokasimov
Tenishev
Chegodaev
Shakhaev
Shirinsky-Shikhmatov
Yaushev

[David_Pritchard]

In the back of the book Dvoryanskie Rody Rossiiskoi Imperii, Tom IV by Stanislaw Dumin, I found the omissions for volume III. In these few pages, I found another Tatar princely family listed, that of the Princes Chanyschevy, who descend from Alun-khan and Chingis-khan. According to the note on this house, more information will be provided in volume V (which has been completed but not yet sent to the printer).

[james_h]

Kalmyk, Tatar(Turkic-Mongoloid)  they are all proto mongoloid. So Kalmyk, Tatar Mongol at that time in that place it ethnically amounted to the same thing.

It appears that the Meshcersky were not Tatars but Volgo-Finns?!? Ruling the Principality of Meshera. Which was effectivly as vassal state of both Moscow and the Kasim Khanate. The Kasim Khanate appears to have been somewhat subservient to the Kazan Khanate.



"The Princes Sibirsky were accorded the status of Princes of the Russian Empire. They were not a prolific familiy so it could be their seeming absence from society that has brought you to the conclusion that they were not recognised. The four children (all of whom seem to have had no issue) of Prince Aleksander Aleksandrovich Sibirsky (1824-1879) were the last of the family. "

You are right in that I probably had not heard of them due to their non prolifigacy (is that a word?)

I suppose I have two issues

1. I haven't access to a definitive list of Tatar/Mongolian Princely Dynasties of Russia.

2. No Tsarist government to argue my malformed opinions to.

Best Wishes (I'm copying you now),
James

[David_Pritchard]

There are great differences between the Kalmukians and the Tatars, language and religion. Though both ethnicities speak languages from the Ural-Altaic language family the Tatars speak languages from the Turkish Tataric sub-faimly and the Kalmuks speak Kalmukian which is in the Mongolian sub-family. Of course you know that the Tatars are Moslem but the Kalmuks are Budhists like their breathren in Siberia.

As far as I know the Princes Mestchersky were a Tatar family, all of my books cannot be wrong, why else would the early members have first names like Hussein, Bamhet and Beklemish? Of course the family did become Orthodox when they were assimilated into the Russian Empire.

Best wishes,

David

[AkshayChavan]

It is really sad that of all Nogai Princes only the junior line of Urusov family is left. I heard that the senior line of Urusovs is extinct. Similarly Yusupov, Kutumov and Chediakov princes are all extinct.