Author Topic: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin  (Read 58691 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2004, 05:52:44 PM »
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I rather think that Felix was a fella with  too much money   ,too much free times,not alot of common sense,very little focus,no  goals. A type of foolish innocent who gets into one misadventure after another.Only his misadventures were big and serious.In a way, I think  that Alexandras friend,Anna, Vyrubova,was, alittle, like Felix.Both being  in,and causing all sorts of  problems  and mischief, for other people, on a grand scale, but coming out  themselves, fairly unscathed .  


Interesting too is the fact that both Felix and Anna V. had known each other since childhood and had never cared for each other, yet both ended up playing such big roles in the drama!

Karentje, I think that's interesting too! If it was Dmitri they tried to cover it because of the plan to install him as Tsar. We may never know.

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2004, 01:58:21 AM »
Annie and all,

I know that Radzinsky has a theory about Dimitry, I have to say that is all it is, there is just is no evidence to support it.  As in much of this tale, for that is what most of story of Rasputin is, there is lots of speculation and senstational story telling.  there is no evidence that there were women at the Palace on the night of the murder.  Radzinsky has not properly examined and anlysed the evidence from the GARF files to which he had access.  Analysis of witnessesaccounts of when shote were fired is essential - Radzinsky has taken things at face value.  Radzinsky I believe went out to prove Dimitry was involved but didn't find any evidence and has chosen to ignore evidence that was available to him.  The British theory elsewhere in this section does have evidence to support it and I am finding out more each day.  I approached this with an open mind but as the facts were revealed the scenario developed as being not only credible but supported by evidence.

Paleoloue who is a useful source first of all states there were women present and then makes an absolute retraction.

The death was far, far more clinical than most people think.  Phil T and I share the view, which is supportable from the evidence of the post mortem and Prof Zharov's re consideration that R was tortured before death.

Although the Time Watch programme shows the final shot to the head being delivered in the court yard, my view is increasingly that after getting him drunk, the conspirators together with Rayner and Alley went down to the basement, attacked Rasputin, tortured him and then eventually shot him - all the shots were fired from no more than 20cm.  Kossorotov indicates that the body shots were fired in quick succession.

I can find no reason to support the Radzinsky idea that they concealed Dimitry's murder of R because it would have looked bad and if he had taken a peasant's life he could not become Tsar.  He was so involved according to both Y and P that firing a gun would have made little differene.  As in this country he would in Russia have been guilty of murder or at least conspiracy to murder.

Equally there is no clear evidence that Dimitry would have been prepared to become Tsar, in fact the opposite is true.

As I have said you will have to await Andrew Cook's book to understand more about the British involvement.  You can look at www.whokilledrasputin.com to give you an idea of what is coming... the story continues after R's death.

I will post Rayner's obit in the British Killed rasputin bit, when I can manage to do it - it is pretty complicated.

Have a good weekend

Richard
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2004, 03:27:17 PM »
Do professional Britsh agents torture their victims before killing them?  That seems odd to me.  You would think they would have quickly dispatched their victim (acheiving their objective) quickly and then get as far away from the scene of the crime as possible.

Bob

Offline Annie

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2004, 05:54:32 PM »
The 'torturing' was supposed to have been a beating and kicking by a large number of partygoers (many of whom were not officially there but were) I thought Greg's book mentioned police reports that 2 women were seen being ousted from the palace around sunup? Vera Korelli admitted being there (much later in her life) and Anna V. said the other woman was Marianne somebody, the daughter of Dmitri's stepmother by her first husband?

Anyway I still hope to see the obit, do you have it but it's not on the computer, or what? Do you have to type it up yourself? Thanks for the website addy, I'll go there!

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2004, 04:11:32 AM »
I've asked Rob to post the bit, as despite my best efforts I can't cut and paste it into here.

Bob, I think it may have been R's alleged connections with the Germans that made him a subject for torture.  the injuries that Y is alleged to have caused seem rather bizarre if it was just done on impulse - but this is a bizarre case.

The damage to the genitalia I think is particularly important and on the basis of forensic psychology seems to have been more likely to have occurred before death than after it.  Where might we look at the evidence we already have to show events were not as portrayed.  Y's alelged assault on R would have left him covered in a substantial amount of blood - Zharov confirms this in his re-examination of the body.  P says Y was covered in blood - but Vlasuk, the alert police officer who sees Y and P in Y's study does not notice any blood, nor report anything unusual about Y.

These were very different times and had things 'gone according to plan' there would have been no police involvement and no body to be found.  It didn't go to plan - Y was recognised when he picked up R - Shots were heard and the police alerted - the body because it was thrown in too close to the Petrovsky Island from the bridge was towed into the river bank.  There was blood on the bridge and of course a shoe and over boot on the snow.

My theory is that the British SIS wanted Y, P and D involved to make this look a Russian killing but there was much, much, more.  I think torture would have been an acceptable thing to do - 'let's find out what R knows about the Germans etc.'  We have examples going back to Alexander the Great and beyond of torturing plotters etc.

I think that Lazovert's much ignored version of events shows more realistically that they were all in the basement at the time of the shooting but doesn't tell all:

"And then after a time he rose and walked to the door.  We were afraid that our work had been in vain.  Suddenly, as he turned at the door, someone shot at him quickly.  With a frightful scream Rasputin whirled and fell, face down, on the floor.  The others came bounding over to him and stood over his prostrate, writhing body.  It was suggested that two more shots be fired to make certain of his death, but one of those present said, “No, no; it is his last agony now.”

As you will recall P at one stages mentions 'shots' in the basement and Paleologue also mentions this.

Whilst I will cover all the forensic stuff in my paper I am genuinely constrained from saying too much as Andrew Cook has the book rights for the British involvement and you can see there will be more in his book than just R's death - see WWW.WhoKilledRasputin.com.  I am told the book will be published in August, his latest book has just 2 November been published.  Andrew, Lion TV and the BBC have agreed I can publish my forensic re-examination and as soon as I get approval from prof Zharov to include the full text of his re-examination I will send it to you Bob to put the whole article on the Alexander Palace web-site.

There is a good deal of information coming out of the woodwork on this and a number of people have contacted me directly - some of Iwill be able to use and some that would be better dealt with by Andrew.

I suppose another issue of interest is that Vlasuk says he saw Y and B walking across the courtyard as he was talking to the yard keeper of 92.  Y who insists that the body was in the courtyard says he positioned himself so V would have had his back to the body.  Not possible V came through the main gates and the yard keeper's hut is next to the gate - right next to where the body was meant to be lying?  Interesting stuff.

I really am hoping to get the BBC involved in the death of the IF and am meeting the producer on 1 December to discuss the series they want me to do.  I have told them to log into this site to see the wealth of information and level of debate.

Richard
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2005, 06:04:15 PM »
Any ideas? It seems as though he did the least in the murder of Rasputin. In Lost Splendor, he said he shot Rasputin, then started to vomit and had to go lay down while the others finished him off. I know Felix wasn't always known for telling the truth, but it seems to me that he was proud of it. Why would he say he did less than he really did when he was proud of it? Or am I misinformed?

Offline Annie

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2005, 02:16:10 PM »
He got it all because he wanted it all. There is much more to the story than he tells us, and many others were involved. But they didn't want it known, he did.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2005, 11:02:37 AM »
He was the most infamous, before and after, and publicized his role the most. He wanted to be known as the murder of Rasputin, so he got it, history awarded that accolade to him. This as just as Yakov Yurovsky wanted tobe known s the murderer of the Romanovs.

Offline AkshayChavan

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2005, 06:07:27 PM »
Strang thing is that his role in the murder has immortalised him in history. Whenever we study russian history, his name will always come up. I believe this is what he wanted. No one remembers Dimitri or pushkevich.
           Look at alexanderpalace.org. Had felix not been rasputin's murderer, i dont think we would have had separate section on yussupov family. Yussupovs too would have dissappeared in history. So in conclusion , if felix had not got credit for the murder, this discussions section on yussupovs too would not have existed!!!

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2005, 10:27:15 AM »
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Strang thing is that his role in the murder has immortalised him in history. Whenever we study russian history, his name will always come up. I believe this is what he wanted. No one remembers Dimitri or pushkevich.
            Look at alexanderpalace.org. Had felix not been rasputin's murderer, i dont think we would have had separate section on yussupov family. Yussupovs too would have dissappeared in history. So in conclusion , if felix had not got credit for the murder, this discussions section on yussupovs too would not have existed!!!


That is the best thing I have ever heard on this subject. Even hs marriage to the Tsar's niece woudn't have gotten him this thread, or discussion section. Good observations. I think he would be known in a much more academic part of Russian history if at all if he hadn't murdered Rasputin.

Offline Valmont

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2005, 02:21:21 PM »
I wouldn't be so sure.......Considering Felix personality, I think he wouldn't have gone "Unnoticed" in history..  I think he was far more than "Rasputin's murderer"...he just loved being under the spotlight....and never really cared for what other people thought about him.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Valmont »
Arturo Vega-Llausás

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2005, 10:19:49 AM »
He woudn't be forgotten, and in fact, would most likely be avidly remembered by some, who are intrigued by characters in history. He was defintely one of those, for sure. I doubt he would be as important as a historical figure if he hadn't murdered Rasputin though. The murder of Rasputin provides a context by which we can learn more about him.

Offline Valmont

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2005, 02:19:43 PM »
I agree with you regarding the historical weight the murder of Rasputin gave him, but  I am sure he did not do it thinking of the historical consecuences of his actions nor to be remember  and secure his place in Universal history.
I believe he had his own motivations that were more personal than for the good of Russia. Maybe he saw Rasputin as the inderect reponsible for the humiliation his mother had suffered when the Empress diimised her telling her "she hopped she never saw her again" when Zenaida   went to an audience with Alix to talk to the Empress about Rasputin. I am sure he knew the general feeling the people had  toward Rasputin and maybe he saw he could cover his personal vendetta with the argument that he killed Rasputing for the best of Russia... Who knows?? That is just what I think his motivations could have been...
The rason why he was given all the credit was that  all the people involved in rasputin's murder had made a pact no to  talk about the murder and obviously Felix did not follow the pact. The other people involved, especially Dimitry did not care for what Felix said. He never talked about that episode in his life, not kept contact with Felix in Exile...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2005, 10:34:42 AM »
Yes, I agree with you that I am sure that Prince Felix was not thinking of his place in the history books when he murdered Rasputin; nor did he do it entirely for political reasons, like the fact that Rasputin's association with the dynasty continued, and ruined the reputation that the Romanov dynasty had. I doubt he was overly concerned with fate of the country, though he may have been concerned with the fate of the dynasty, a bit for himself. But his motivations were complex, and had a element of the personal at some point. I doubt he wanted dry, history book type rememberance anyway. He was not that way.

Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2005, 11:06:06 AM »
I think Felix knew exactly what he was doing.He came from a long line of grandee's who had had "their finger's in the pie" so to speak with the lives of every Tsar.How else had they risen to such fame and fortune.He thought this miserable act was a great patriotic deed which was as worthy as those of his illustrious forebears.Felix was somebody who his entire life wanted, needed to be the centre of attention,to be talked about, the "assasination" of the notorious Rasputin would I'm sure he thought turn him into a national hero,more famous than  any of his famed forebears. The treatment of his mother by the Empress was only the catalyst,indeed Zenaida the proud,beautiful heiress herself had only been "carrying on the Family tradition" of meddling .....