Author Topic: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana  (Read 41189 times)

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Eric_Lowe

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The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« on: October 20, 2005, 11:21:52 AM »
Anybody want to tell us something about the Hapsburgs of the Tuscan branch ?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 02:17:16 PM by amedeo »

Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2005, 06:47:14 PM »
Thanks !

One thing is really interesting ! It seems that more people accepted the secret marriage of Archduke Ferdinand IV of Tuscany's daughter Maria Antonia and Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria. There also seemed to be a child born out of this union. Anybody has an opinion ?

It would also be nice if anyone have photos of Maria Antonia, who did die young.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2005, 08:58:02 PM »
There is a long rumour that Crown Prince Rudolf fell for his cousin Archduchess Maria Antonia, the only daughter of Grand Duke Ferdinand IV of Tuscany and his first wife, a princess from the Royal House of Saxony.

When her mother died, Maria Antonia was still quite small. Although her father remarried later they were still very close. However Maria Antonia inherited her mother's frail health. When Crown Prince Rudolf met his cousin, he fell deeply in love with this lovely, quiet and talented princess.

When he asked for permission to marry her, Emperor Franz Josef refused, one of the reason being that she she was ill and not likely to have a long life (most likely he thought back on his own sick wife, Rudolf's mother Sisi).

However things got sticky when Maria Antonia discovered that she was with child. So Rudolf married Maria Antonia in secret and the child was later given up to adoption. Maria Antonia never got over the shock, and decided to enter into holy orders. She died soon after Rudolf married.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2005, 09:09:04 PM »
Well...So was Stephaine pf Belgium wheom she later married !

I guess the fact that they are night and day sort of explain the unigueness of the both women.

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2005, 04:53:19 PM »


Maria Antonia or "Antoinette" as she was called by her family, wasn't in good health since she was born. She suffered from a lung disease, maybe tuberculosis.
In 1860, when she was only two years old, she left Tuscany for Salzburg. There she lived with the rest of her family in the exile. When Antoinette was ten, her father married a second time. She came along very well with her step-mother Alix, Princess of Bourbon-Parma. I read in the autobiography of Antoinette's eldest half-sister Louise that she was a very intelligent woman and that she was admired by her little siblings. Antoinette had indeed a lot of interests. Above all she loved poetry and wrote nice little poems. Her teacher published them after her death. Antoinette became abbess of the so-called "Theresianisches Damenstift" in Prague. Because of her bad health she lived in the last years of her life in Cannes. There she died on 13 April 1883. She was laid to rest in Vienna. Her father Ferdinand IV. loved Antoinette a lot and was devastated after her death.

BTW: I don't believe in the rumour that Antonia was the secret wife of Rudolf and gave birth to a boy, who called himself Robert Pachmann, in 1883 ...



« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 11:36:13 AM by amedeo »
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Elisabeth

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2005, 05:11:11 PM »
"She died soon after Rudolf married."

Maria Antonia died on 13 April 1883. Rudolf married Stéphanie of Belgium on 10 May 1881.

If Antonia was Rudolf's wife, there must have been a divorce. Otherwise Rudolf was a bigamist.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 10:50:55 AM by amedeo »
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2005, 09:48:10 PM »
Thanks for the photos & pictures. They are very interesting.

Maria Antonia's mother was one of those sickly Saxon princesses that mostly died early (one of them married Archduke Franz Carl, father of Franz Ferdinand). It seems the sickness came with her mother. The archduchesses of the second marriage (including the famous Louise of Tuscany) were strong in health.

According to "Le Petite Gotha", the Hapsburg family recogonized the decendents of Robert Puchann as their cousins and decendents of Rudolf. Sorry no doubts here, the family has spoken !

Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2005, 09:50:59 PM »
Another thing. Maria Antonia entered into holy orders shortly after the child was born. I guess the divorce or annullment has to pass before a married woman can enter into the church. I believe that it was all taken care of before Rudolf and Stephanie got married.


Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2005, 02:13:21 AM »
Anyway, in my opinion the marriage Rudolf - Maria Antonia is nonsense ...

Of course, the Pachmann's believe in this. I would also, because it looks good to be a descendent of Crown-Prince Rudolf.
The Imperial Family has never certified that.

BTW, Antonia became abbess on 17 September 1880 and definitly not "shortly after the child was born" (which means 1883).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 10:51:47 AM by amedeo »
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
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Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


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umigon

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2005, 08:54:42 AM »


I don't believe Rudolf and Antonia were married, don't think their personalities would have matched. By the way, if they had indeed been married, Francis Joseph would have celebrated a public marriage and that's it.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2005, 09:43:05 AM »
Well...I think Rudolf would have ended up better with a gentle sickly wife than one (Stephine of Belgium) that jarred his nerves...One look at her autobiography "I Was To be Empress" is enough to turn off quite a number of people.

I don't think Franz Josef would have liked to have Maria Antonia as a daughter-in-law. She was too sickly and unimportant to be wife of an heir to the throne. Anyway one reason why Stephanie was accepted because she was the niece of Archduchess Elisabeth, Franz Joesf's former love, who still have his attention unlike poor Sisi.

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2005, 10:47:04 PM »
Eric...you so easily believe all these rumors...really...one can only but begin to imagine the magnitude of the scandal if this nonsense had ever happened.

I know the author of "Le Petit Gotha" quite well and consider her a very good friend.  That does not make me believe and accept every blessed rumour she repeats and she is guilty alas of repeating some and too easily believing others.  I remember for example a few years ago when she told me she had "inside" proof that a crown prince in Europe was gay and never going to marry...well surprise, surprise, surprise...this person is not only happily married, but has had zero trouble fathering a child...

Repeating these rumors as gospel does a disservice to the study of royalty, nothing else.

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2005, 10:49:08 PM »

Why unimportant?  What makes her less important than the younger daughter of the former reigning Duke of Parma, a lesser princess in the big scheme of things that Franz Joseph had absolutely no problem in allowing his great-nephew and heir to marry?

Arturo Beéche
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 10:53:22 AM by amedeo »
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2005, 10:18:12 AM »
Well...sometimes things just cannot be proved without reasonable doubt. I am of that opinion. For example people all believe that Anastasia and Alexei died with their parents. But without a coprse, that does round things nicely isn't it.

As for the gay thing, you told me yourself quite a few gay princes had no problems getting married and produce the goods. As one expect say, it doesn't take a genius to father a child...add to that modern technology. now even sex is not required !  

Eric_Lowe

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Re: The Habsburgs - Grand Dukes of Toscana
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2005, 10:24:33 AM »
As for Franz Josef forbidding a marriage. It will not be a first time. Remember the ex-grocer's sad tale of Franz Josef who forbid him to marry Princess Elivia of Bourbon, daughter of Don Carlos.