Author Topic: Riding his sled/sledge down the stairs at Tobolsk  (Read 64431 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2005, 10:33:43 AM »
According to Marina Botkin Schweitzer (Gleb Botkin's daughter)  Tatiana Botkina was already with her father in Tobolsk when Gleb joined them in the fall of 1917, and the children remained in Tobolsk throughout the Imperial Family's captivity there. So, yes, Tatiana Botkina had direct, daily contact with her father at the time of Aleksei's illness. Whether or not she told the truth, embellished the story, or just plain made up the cause of the hemorrhage is another matter...

However, I was incorrect in saying that Gleb was writing stories for the tsesarevich in the spring of 1918 -- Gleb's stories were written for Aleksei before the October Revolution of 1917.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Georgiy

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Slava v vyshnikh Bogu
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2005, 01:37:06 AM »
Sorry GD Marishka if I sounded rude - that was not my intention.

I think the comment "As if on purpose" has a hint of irony in it, I doubt it means the Tsar thinks he knocked his leg on purpose, more like "this would happen, just when we don't need it to."

I doubt we will ever be able to say one way or the other as to what happened, but I think the coughing is more likely. Botkin might have seen Alexei sledding inside and mentioned it to Tatiana Botkin, then a day or two later Alexei is sick, and Tatiana Botkin puts two and two together in her own mind, and then later on in her book writes what she supposed had been the cause of the haemmorhage. Maybe that is an explaination?

Offline Eternal_Princess

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Devoted to the memory of the lost.
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2005, 09:22:45 AM »
Quote
I doubt we will ever be able to say one way or the other as to what happened, but I think the coughing is more likely. Botkin might have seen Alexei sledding inside and mentioned it to Tatiana Botkin, then a day or two later Alexei is sick, and Tatiana Botkin puts two and two together in her own mind, and then later on in her book writes what she supposed had been the cause of the haemmorhage. Maybe that is an explaination?



I think that is the best thing I've heard on the subject, Georgiy. And I think you could be right.
The little Tsarevich is still so young!
Alexei's a fledgling, an innocent son.
Holy Russia, pray for this little one.

(Marina Tsvetaev)

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2005, 10:11:57 PM »
My book came today, so here's my translation of Botkina's version of the story:

Suddenly, Aleksei Nikolaevich took to his bed. It was a great misfortune for everyone, since he suffered very much; there appeared on him an internal bruise from the injured place, quite as exhausting as at Spala. Terribly lively and gay, he constantly jumped, skipped, and made up very rough games. One of them -- riding down the stair-steps in a wooden boat on runners, another -- a sort of improvised rolling from logs. I don't know during which of these, but Aleksei Nikolaevich was injured and took to his bed, suffering.

There you are. Now judge for yourselves.  ;)
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Grand Duchess Marishka

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
    • Ponaganset Hogwarts
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2005, 09:00:51 AM »
No my apologies, Georgiy, I shouldn't have been so sensitive about it-
and yes, I suppose it was an accident in the mind of an unfortunately invalid boy. One must feel sympathy for him.

Offline Georgiy

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Slava v vyshnikh Bogu
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2005, 11:16:23 PM »
Yes, whether it was one of those things or a cough as the Tsar and Tsaritsa suggest, it was certainly not as a result of any suicidal behaviour on Alexei's behalf. I still tend to think that Tatiana Botkin heard of his antics and put two and two together when he was bed-ridden. Otherwise the Tsar or Tsaritsa would have probably written something like "Baby hurt himself while playing and has developed a haemmorhage in the groin..."

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2005, 08:29:52 AM »
I agree with Georgiy. I think it's likely that Tatiana Botkin simply made an assumption based on Aleksei's recent behavior.

I find it interesting that the Imperial couple allowed Aleksei to toboggan on the snow mountain in the first place. It's safer than the stairway, but certainly not risk-free -- I can't tell you how many times I've fallen off a sled or knocked my head on the hill on the way down... (Of course, anyone who's ever seen Home Alone knows the stairway stunt can be done!)
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline ladyamythyst69

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • On The Needles
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2005, 03:02:23 PM »
I don't think from the evidence we can assume that Alexsei hurt himself sledding downstairs. It is a possible explanation but only one of several possibilities. It is just as likely that he hurt himself coughing.

That said - I am the parent of two children with severe food allergies. I won't go into a long explanation of the medical condition here except to say that if my children eat or inhale the wrong thing they will go into anaphylactic shock and could die within minutes. Anaphylactic shock involves (among other things) the inability to breathe and it comes on very, very fast. I carry injectable Epinephrine everywhere as an emergency measure.

Anyhow - I mention this because I absolutely believe that children who live with any type of illness in which they are perfectly normal most of the time, yet could be struck down at any second and in danger of dying a quick and painful death can and do develop risk taking behaviors as a way of coping with the stress.

It sounds backwards to think that they do this but they do. They actually feel better if they "challenge" their condition by taking a risk. They roll the dice and if nothing bad happens to them that time, it can make them feel a little less vulnerable.

I cannot over stress the absolute vulnerability these children feel. They may appear happy and go about life and cope very well. But anyone who knows them well can see how the knowledge of their condition pervades every single aspect of their lives. It is inescapable.

All I can say is that Alexsei and his parents and siblings carried a burden that no one who had not been there themselves can ever fully understand.

This is probably a large reason why I am so attracted to the story of the IF myself. Things that they did that look incomprehensible to others seem perfectly reasonable to me given the condition of their son and the medical knowledge & capabilities of the times. Because I share the same type of stress about my children I really can feel for the IF as human beings.

(I'm not saying that other people can't understand them - just that I may have a unique perspective.)

Offline Tania+

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1206
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2005, 12:14:04 AM »
I tend to lean towards this explanation, and thank you for your offering your perspective.

I have worked with children who have taken like actions as you describe, in regards to coping with stress.

quote:
"can and do develop risk taking behaviors as a way of coping with the stress
end quote.

Their parent's and family members are at a loss, and worried, but many times unable to change their actions, unless brought to a person skilled in stress reduction.

Thanks again for your perspective.

Tatiana


Quote
I don't think from the evidence we can assume that Alexsei hurt himself sledding downstairs. It is a possible explanation but only one of several possibilities. It is just as likely that he hurt himself coughing.

That said - I am the parent of two children with severe food allergies. I won't go into a long explanation of the medical condition here except to say that if my children eat or inhale the wrong thing they will go into anaphylactic shock and could die within minutes. Anaphylactic shock involves (among other things) the inability to breathe and it comes on very, very fast. I carry injectable Epinephrine everywhere as an emergency measure.

Anyhow - I mention this because I absolutely believe that children who live with any type of illness in which they are perfectly normal most of the time, yet could be struck down at any second and in danger of dying a quick and painful death can and do develop risk taking behaviors as a way of coping with the stress.

It sounds backwards to think that they do this but they do. They actually feel better if they "challenge" their condition by taking a risk. They roll the dice and if nothing bad happens to them that time, it can make them feel a little less vulnerable.

I cannot over stress the absolute vulnerability these children feel. They may appear happy and go about life and cope very well. But anyone who knows them well can see how the knowledge of their condition pervades every single aspect of their lives. It is inescapable.

All I can say is that Alexsei and his parents and siblings carried a burden that no one who had not been there themselves can ever fully understand.

This is probably a large reason why I am so attracted to the story of the IF myself. Things that they did that look incomprehensible to others seem perfectly reasonable to me given the condition of their son and the medical knowledge & capabilities of the times. Because I share the same type of stress about my children I really can feel for the IF as human beings.

(I'm not saying that other people can't understand them - just that I may have a unique perspective.)

TatianaA


Offline Sarastasia

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 277
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2005, 12:00:59 PM »
Maybe I'm just being silly, but this doesn't seem to be the sort of stunt that Alexei would pull. Wouldn't he know what agonizing pain it would cause him?? The way they portraied it in Nicholas and Alexandra was really strange... It was almost like it was an attention-seeking act. Which is rather ridiculous since he already had a LOT of attention!

Sarastasia xx

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2005, 10:17:27 AM »
LOOK AT THIS! From Aleksei's own diary on 25 March, quoted in Romanov Autumn:

A local businessman sent me a sledge and a boat as a present, modelled on the sledges and boats they use in this area.... Kolia and I played with them for ages and we slid down the staircase in the boat. He left at nine.

:o
So while we can't be sure this is how Aleksei hurt himself, we can be certain that the sledding incident is true!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Eternal_Princess

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Devoted to the memory of the lost.
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2005, 10:40:33 AM »
Quote
LOOK AT THIS! From Aleksei's own diary on 25 March, quoted in Romanov Autumn:

A local businessman sent me a sledge and a boat as a present, modelled on the sledges and boats they use in this area.... Kolia and I played with them for ages and we slid down the staircase in the boat. He left at nine.

 :o
So while we can't be sure this is how Aleksei hurt himself, we can be certain that the sledding incident is true!



Ahh. Now this starts to put things in some perspective. ;)

Perhaps it did happen, Tatiana Botkin heard about the incident and Alexei being ill. Perhaps Dr Botkin didn't say what had specifically injured Alexei, maybe that's how she put it together?
The little Tsarevich is still so young!
Alexei's a fledgling, an innocent son.
Holy Russia, pray for this little one.

(Marina Tsvetaev)

Offline Joy0318

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2005, 07:57:53 PM »
I think that he probably did go sledding down the stairs. He was a 13 year old boy and was probably bored and decided that sledding in the house would be something fun to do. I don't think he thought about what the consequences of his action might be. I did some pretty stupid and dangerous things as a child.  I can still remember diving off the high diving board and doing a big belly flop one time. Ouch!  I don't think he was trying to hurt himself to get attention or worse a suicide attempt.  He was just not that type of person.   I think he was just being a kid.  It mad me mad that in the movie Nicholas and Alexandra tried to make it look like either an intent to hurt himself or an attention getting ploy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RomanovFan318 »
A horse is a horse of course of  course
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is of course unless the horse
Is the famous Mr. Ed.

Offline koloagirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 488
  • Loving each other and having faith always.
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2006, 11:35:54 PM »
One of the many flaws in the movie "Nicholas and Alexandra" is the film's decision to show Alexei as being sullen and depressed towards the end-- lashing out at his father after the abdication and after professing everything "hopeless" -- taking his "sled" up the stairs
as if to commit suicide.

Everything that we now know (and remember this movie was made way back when!) indicates that none of this behavior would be something that the Tsarevich would engage in.

Other than the young man who played Alexei looking somewhat (only somewhat!) like him - his portrayal was otherwise really "off" in my opinion.

Janet R.

Offline Joy0318

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Riding His Sled Down the Stairs
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2006, 08:16:00 AM »
Quote
Other than the young man who played Alexei looking somewhat (only somewhat!) like him - his portrayal was otherwise really "off" in my opinion.



I agree.  The portrayal Alexei's character was way off.   I hope that if they decide to do a re-make of this movie they choose an actor who looks a bit more like Alexei and that they  DO NOT portray him as being so bland and depressed. They need to show him as he really was.  A happy boy despite his ill health.
A horse is a horse of course of  course
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is of course unless the horse
Is the famous Mr. Ed.