Author Topic: Queen Elizabeth of York  (Read 14648 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Queen Elizabeth of York
« on: October 24, 2005, 12:39:04 PM »
I was quite surprised to find there is not already a thread on this woman. I think she was a more interesting woman than she is generally given credit for.

When looking at later Plantagenet family trees, it is always interesting to note: 'Oh, so and so had Plantagenet blood' - see the 'Tracing the Plantagenets thread  ;D). An easy to overlook fact is that Elizabeth herself, wife of the usurper Henry Tudor, was a Plantagent.

And she wasn't just a Plantagenet - she had Woodville blood, and her maternal grandmother had been a princess of Luxembourg. On her father's side, she also had the blood of the proud Neville family, a great 15th century English clan.

Elizabeth is often seen as a typical queen consort of this period - meek, quiet, submissive. And yet, she did, on occasion, display the indomitable spirit of her parents - particularly when her son Arthur died, and she 'bore up' very well, reminding King Henry that he too had been an only child, but through God's grace had survived to become king. She also reminded him 'we are both young enough' - i.e to have more children.

More than once during her life, Elizabeth displayed a kindness characteristic of neither the Plantagenets nor the Woodvilles - a good example is her conduct to the widowed Princess of Wales, Catherine of Aragon, after the death of Prince Arthur.

I am especially interested in discussing Elizabeth's relationships with her family. It is well know that she enjoyed an unusually happy marriage with King Henry. But what of her children? It seems a generally accepted fact that Henry VIII idolised his mother, but can anyone produce tangible proof of this? And her mother, Dowager Queen Elizabeth Woodville? How did Elizabeth get on with her, especially after 1483?

I hope this thread will provoke some interesting discussions!  :)
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2005, 03:08:15 PM »
i think elizabeth and henry's marriage was happy not in the sense that they were madly in love with each other but in the sense that they were loyal to each other and they each found a partner in the other. in those times, especially in aristocratic arranged marriages, that was rarely so. i think that turned in time into a sort of mutual affection though :)...

don't know about her mother, but i'd be curious to know about her relationship to margaret beaufort who did dominate the court. was elizabeth submissive or was margaret dominant? ;)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2005, 03:17:47 PM »
Margaret was most certainly dominant! She signed things Margaret R and was virtually Queen Mother in all but name!

I think the fact that Henry VII had no known affairs speaks volumes about his relationship with Elizabeth . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2005, 03:22:57 PM »
hum... maybe... but i really don't see henry having affairs. and it's not necessarilly about elizabeth although the fact that they got along i'm sure must have helped. i simply don't think he was that kind of a guy... cause, yes, there is a this kind and that kind of a guy :P...

there are giuys like henry 8th and guys like henry 7th...  i don't think sex was important enough for him to do that and i don't think he was the kind to just fall passionately in love :P... if there was ever a love he felt that was for elizabeth but it was in a quiet attachment sort of way

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2005, 03:25:46 PM »
Wasn't it Margaret who introduced the rigid "birthing" rules into court?
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2005, 03:27:16 PM »
Quote
hum... maybe... but i really don't see henry having affairs. and it's not necessarilly about elizabeth although the fact that they got along i'm sure must have helped. i simply don't think he was that kind of a guy... cause, yes, there is a this kind and that kind of a guy :P...

there are giuys like henry 8th and guys like henry 7th...  i don't think sex was important enough for him to do that and i don't think he was the kind to just fall passionately in love :P... if there was ever a love he felt that was for elizabeth but it was in a quiet attachment sort of way


Ilyala, what a cynic you are!  ;D

And Kim, please tell us more of these birthing rules!
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2005, 03:27:39 PM »
that would probably be because of her own traumatic experience

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2005, 03:31:05 PM »
Yes, she had something of a grim interest in the marriage of her granddaughter Margaret to the King of Scots - still, we can't let this turn into a Margaret Beaufort thread!
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2005, 03:35:27 PM »
oh ok.

elizabeth of york was a great woman....

does that do? ;D

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2005, 04:18:58 PM »
For now.  ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

bell_the_cat

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2005, 01:38:58 AM »
Quote
hum... maybe... but i really don't see henry having affairs. and it's not necessarilly about elizabeth although the fact that they got along i'm sure must have helped. i simply don't think he was that kind of a guy... cause, yes, there is a this kind and that kind of a guy :P...

there are giuys like henry 8th and guys like henry 7th...  i don't think sex was important enough for him to do that and i don't think he was the kind to just fall passionately in love :P... if there was ever a love he felt that was for elizabeth but it was in a quiet attachment sort of way


Yes, Henry VII got much more pleasure out of checking the royal accounts!

ilyala

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2005, 06:49:53 AM »
oh come on! he wasn't as cheap as rumoured!

people remembered him as cheap because they paid him many fines. they paid many fines because at that time the king's authority was not well established and they weren't taking him seriously and disobbeying him. he made them pay fines. it was a nice and civilized way of establishing his authority.

henry's court was reported to be glamorous by the foreign ambassadors. had he been really cheap it wouldn't have been.

bell_the_cat

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2005, 07:00:38 AM »
I didn't mean he was cheap.  :D

He just loved checking the accounts that's all. He put ticks and little comments beside every item!

ilyala

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2005, 07:05:32 AM »
:P

sorry, i kinda have a thing for henry 7th (as in he's one of my favorite historical characters).

i think he had his rituals and checking accounts was maybe one of them. like a very organized businessman or something. :)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Queen Elizabeth of York
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2005, 10:19:34 AM »
Elizabeth personally checked her accounts too, I think . . .

But getting back to Elizabeth of York, does anyone have anything to say about her early life? Do we know who her godparents were, was her education good etc?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."