Author Topic: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?  (Read 46570 times)

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Offline koloagirl

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2007, 03:39:14 PM »
 :)

Aloha all!

I too have always had a hard time believing that Derevenko would turn on Alexei and the IF -- he was at Alexei's side practically day and night for years -- I'm sure that any perceived resentment or insolence would have been noticed long before the revolution.  How could he help from becoming emotionally attached to the boy? ???

As much as I have sympathies for Anna V. -- I do think that she would not be above using her "memoirs" to make up or enhance a story as revenge for some perceived slight or argument with Derevenko.

So put me in the camp of believing in Derevenko's innocence!   ;D
Janet R.

Damie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2007, 06:11:38 PM »
In my opinion, Derevenko most likely lost his nerve and was worried only about saving his own skin. The Bolshevilks were shooting Romanovs and throwing them down mine shafts and he probably knew this and abandoned Alexei, first emotionally and then altogether by what he was sure was a run for his life.

mr_harrison75

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2007, 09:15:42 PM »
Hhrrrm...I do not wish to sound patronizing, Danie, but...

The alleged incident of Derevenko with Aleksei was supposed to have happened in March 1917, waay before Romanovs began to be butchered by the Reds; Ella's, Mikhail, and Nikolaï and his family's murders happened during summer 1918, so Derevenko couldn't have been worried by something that had not happened yet.

I suggest you read Sarushka's earlier post, it will help you to understand how improbable it is that the Derevenko-Aleksei incident happened...  :)


Damie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2007, 01:32:26 AM »
Hhrrrm...I do not wish to sound patronizing, Danie, but...

The alleged incident of Derevenko with Aleksei was supposed to have happened in March 1917, waay before Romanovs began to be butchered by the Reds; Ella's, Mikhail, and Nikolaï and his family's murders happened during summer 1918, so Derevenko couldn't have been worried by something that had not happened yet.

I suggest you read Sarushka's earlier post, it will help you to understand how improbable it is that the Derevenko-Aleksei incident happened...  :)



You're not patronizing me at all. I feel that we're all friends here and I'm not too proud to admit I was mistaken on this subject. My timing was surely off, and I'm even relieved to be convinced, finally, that it was improbable that Derevenko abused and bullied Alexei.  Since my hasty post I've dated from Lieven's Nicholas II Derevenko's departure from the Tsarskoe Selo being in the spring of 1917, when clashes between soldiers and palace servants were a daily occurrence.

Your humble student,

Damie

  

Offline Belochka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2007, 02:10:14 AM »
Hhrrrm...I do not wish to sound patronizing, Danie, but...

The alleged incident of Derevenko with Aleksei was supposed to have happened in March 1917,


Anna Taneeva was incacerated in the Trubetskoi Bastion on March 21, 1917.

According to my Russian language source:

On the previous day Anna saw Derevenko lying on a sofa ordering the naslednik (heir) to give him one thing then another. Alexei looked at D. with sadness and amazement, ran, carrying out his order.

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dmitri

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2007, 03:45:52 AM »
primary sources can also be checked against other primary sources ... secondary sources are usually corrupted and relate back to primary sources eventually

Offline Belochka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2007, 05:06:46 AM »
primary sources can also be checked against other primary sources ... secondary sources are usually corrupted and relate back to primary sources eventually

The Russian language source that I used was allegedly written by Anna Taneeva herself. Not all sources are valid, and here is why:

The latest compiler of Taneeva's 1917 Kerensky depositions, letters etc. Yuri Rassulin stated in July 2000 that the "Diary" attributed to have been written by Taneeva is a fabrication. He is not the first to have offered this opinion, many Russian historians have come to the same conclusion.

They all claim that the real authors were A. N. Tolstoy and P. E. Shegolev (Щёголев) who sat on the Kerensky Extraordinary Commission of Inquiry.

Margarita
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 05:08:54 AM by Belochka »


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dmitri

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2007, 05:12:13 AM »
how very interesting

Offline Belochka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2007, 05:19:44 AM »
What disturbs me most of all about Taneeva's alleged observation is that she watched and remained silent. Frankly I find the entire scenario that was portrayed absurd.

The reality is that the depicted episode was a piece of soviet disinformation created to disfavor the most loyal staff who served the Imperial Family admirably.

Margarita 
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2007, 06:33:31 AM »

According to Charlotte Zeepvat in Romanov Autumn, Vyrubova is the only source for the story of Derevenko's betrayal. Here's an excerpt from pages 239-40:

"According to Anna, it happened on 20 March, two days before her own arrest.

The author was unfortunately mistaken about the date of Anya's arrest.

In Nikolai II's diary entry dated March 21, 1917:

"Kerensky arrived ... ordered the arrest of poor Anya ... This happened between 3 and 4 p.m., whilst I was walking".

Margarita
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Janet_W.

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2007, 12:23:48 PM »
Now I must ask if Anna's entire book is "Soviet disinformation"!

As both an editor and a freelancer I know that words, phrases, and even entire paragraphs can be reworked or omitted entirely. (I could expound on this subject but for now will forbear!!) However--and perhaps I've misread or misunderstood--I have to question the possibility of her autobiography, in which that reference to Derevenko appears, as not being most of her own work. Though she undoubtedly received assistance in writing it, her voice seems consistant throughout the book and the personality portrayed tallies with what Felix, Lili, Isa and others say about her. So I'm hoping, Belochka, that you are not including the book published for English readers with any Russian publication purported to have been written by her.

Also, re: the Derevenko episode, do we know that she remained silent? (I don't have her bio with me at this time.) It's possible she might have complained to Alexandra or someone else and simply not indicated in her book that she did so. Also, the possibility exists that she may have remained silent because of the volatile situation in general. That is, of course, if the incident actually occured, or occured as described. I still think there's a possibility she might have misinterpretted what she saw . . . perhaps have deliberately have misinterpretted the incident so as to score off some sort of grudge.

If I recall correctly, Derevenko had a son about the age of Alexei. So as a parent rather than as a single man, as were several of the tutors, he might be more likely to enforce rules and discipline. (And despite their generally indulgent behavior towards Alexei, Nicholas and Alexandra also may have looked to Derevenko as someone who could keep their son reasonably contained.) It is possible, as I mentioned before, this is the type of episode Anna may have witnessed, and perhaps on more than one occasion, and that she possibly used this sort of observance(s) to jab a pin into Derevenko's reputation for what we would call a "gotcha!"

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2007, 09:45:34 AM »
Now I must ask if Anna's entire book is "Soviet disinformation"!

As both an editor and a freelancer I know that words, phrases, and even entire paragraphs can be reworked or omitted entirely. (I could expound on this subject but for now will forbear!!) However--and perhaps I've misread or misunderstood--I have to question the possibility of her autobiography, in which that reference to Derevenko appears, as not being most of her own work. Though she undoubtedly received assistance in writing it, her voice seems consistant throughout the book and the personality portrayed tallies with what Felix, Lili, Isa and others say about her. So I'm hoping, Belochka, that you are not including the book published for English readers with any Russian publication purported to have been written by her.

Indeed. I have a hard time fathoming what the Soviets would gain by fabricating a book that is so very sympathetic to the imperial family.  ???
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helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2007, 12:21:29 PM »
IMO, it was something a lot less sinister and much simpler than that. I think that maybe AV was confused and exaggerated the incident, or perhaps simply made it up because she didn't like Derevenko... 

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2007, 06:49:25 PM »
IMO, it was something a lot less sinister and much simpler than that. I think that maybe AV was confused and exaggerated the incident, or perhaps simply made it up because she didn't like Derevenko... 

Yep. Most likely...Anna Virubova has some little tendence to exagerations...

RealAnastasia.

mr_harrison75

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2007, 06:53:45 PM »
Probably...

But have you ever thought that it was perhaps a monarchist fabrication?  ;)