Author Topic: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?  (Read 46846 times)

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helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2007, 07:23:35 PM »
But have you ever thought that it was perhaps a monarchist fabrication?  ;)

I don't think you are serious, but if so, what would be the reason for monarchists to fabricate this? Or for anyone for that matter. At that point, who cared about Derevenko, everyone had so much more to be concerned with.... And why Derevenko in particular and not Nagorny or Trupp or Chermodoruv, etc.? I think the simplest explanation is always the best one, the one I mentioned above...

Tsarevich

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to hi
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2014, 08:20:35 PM »
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That rotten turncoat, Derevenko! At a time when Baby (Alexei) needed him the most, he goes off and abandons him, the slimeball! I can't believe him the creep! Ahem, sorry about that guys, but I am just so angry at him for the way he heartlessly betrayed Alexei and abandoned him during the Revolution.

Nene,  I feel exactly the same way about him! I've really never cared to know what happened to him because he was such a scumbag. It's strange though that he was the sailor most photographed with Alexei and yet in the end he was nothing but a turncoat. I wish we had more photos of the loyal Nagorny. He was murdered for trying to protect Alexei from the evil Bolshevik guards.


Maybe Derevenko was partially drunk? Or perhaps Alexei was using what is common streetsmarts when confronted with an angry and upset adult: HUMOR HIM until he goes away. Anyone who lived in NYC knows when you are on a subway and an adult starts acting strangely toward you , be polite, acknowledge the person and discreetly try to get out of the person's way...or wait until he leaves. Alexei was using common sense realizing something was terribly wrong with Derevenko that day.

Tsarevich

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to hi
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2014, 08:32:35 PM »
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That rotten turncoat, Derevenko! At a time when Baby (Alexei) needed him the most, he goes off and abandons him, the slimeball! I can't believe him the creep! Ahem, sorry about that guys, but I am just so angry at him for the way he heartlessly betrayed Alexei and abandoned him during the Revolution.

Nene,  I feel exactly the same way about him! I've really never cared to know what happened to him because he was such a scumbag. It's strange though that he was the sailor most photographed with Alexei and yet in the end he was nothing but a turncoat. I wish we had more photos of the loyal Nagorny. He was murdered for trying to protect Alexei from the evil Bolshevik guards.

I am new to working the Forums. I want to leave a Reply: I think Alexei was actually using Common Sense when Derevenko stormed in like that. Anyone who lives in NYC knows when you're confronted with a person who is obviously upset, crazy or drunk or stoned, and they turn on YOU, it is best to be polite and humor that individual until you can get away from him or he goes away to annoy someone else. Alexei was doing the right thing when someone he knew so well suddenly came in acting strangely. We reallly don't know what was wrong with Derevenko when he came in like that. Was he partially "loaded"? Did Alexei smell booze and sense it was best to humor him until he leaves? No one else besides Alexei was actually IN the room when Derevenko did his final performance. Let me know if I am wrong. But if I were Alexei I would have done the same thing confronted by a burly, angry, possibly "balmy" adult looking for a fight and could twist my head off if I provoked him further.


rosieposie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2014, 06:09:31 AM »
Yes Derevenko did drop the Imperial Family once things came to a head but I think in that situation, he had to think of his own young family and I am sure he had an idea that things were going to take a nasty turn with the IF.    In one way I can see him as a "villain" for abandoning the family at the time of need but on the other I can see him doing what he could to save himself and his family.    What would you do if you were in that situation with a young family?   I am not trying to defend his actions,  I am just looking at different perspectives.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2014, 07:02:35 AM »
I agree with Rosie Posie. Derevenko was the topic of another recent thread. In that discussion it seems most of us agreed that the portrayal of him during early captivity by Anna Vyrubova was highly exaggerated. This is not at all surprising given the fact that while her own loyalty towards the IF was never in question her motives and mental capacity certainly were. In other words, always consider the source.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

rosieposie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2014, 08:55:46 PM »
I agree with Rosie Posie. Derevenko was the topic of another recent thread. In that discussion it seems most of us agreed that the portrayal of him during early captivity by Anna Vyrubova was highly exaggerated. This is not at all surprising given the fact that while her own loyalty towards the IF was never in question her motives and mental capacity certainly were. In other words, always consider the source.

There is just something about Anna Vyrubova that even though I think she was a nice person,  she kind of gives off a bit of "Single White Female" air about her.   Especially when it concerns Alexandra, If anyone gets my meaning? 

Derevenko, I think he cared deeply for Alexei but as I said before he might have had an idea of what things were going to come out of it and wanted to stay with his young family.  It must have been a hard choice. 

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2014, 09:28:39 PM »
Yes Derevenko did drop the Imperial Family once things came to a head but I think in that situation, he had to think of his own young family and I am sure he had an idea that things were going to take a nasty turn with the IF.    In one way I can see him as a "villain" for abandoning the family at the time of need but on the other I can see him doing what he could to save himself and his family.    What would you do if you were in that situation with a young family?   I am not trying to defend his actions,  I am just looking at different perspectives.

Charlotte Zeepvat's book, Romanov Autumn, provides evidence that Derevenko did not abandon the imperial family after all. If I recall correctly, he repeatedly petitioned the Provisional Government to allow him to join the tsar's family in Tobolsk, but was denied.
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rosieposie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2014, 12:31:37 AM »
Why did they deny him to travel with the IF to Tobolsk?  Sarushka, is there an explanation?   Is it because he had his family and Nargony didn't?   It just seems sad that this character in history is painted as a betrayer for not being with the Imperial Family.

helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2014, 07:54:26 AM »
From what I understand, a lot of the IF's "people", even those they felt very close to, left them once they were arrested. Only a handful remained really loyal, and brave, enough to remain with them until the end. I don't think that necessarily means they "betrayed" them, there could have been many reasons for that. I would imagine most of them had families of their own and had to think of their safety and well being, and there is nothing wrong with that. So just because Devervenko did not follow them, it doesn't mean he betrayed them. But I wonder why Vyrubova fixated specifically on him to accuse of betrayal, and not anyone else...

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2014, 07:58:56 AM »
Why did they deny him to travel with the IF to Tobolsk?  Sarushka, is there an explanation?   Is it because he had his family and Nargony didn't?   It just seems sad that this character in history is painted as a betrayer for not being with the Imperial Family.

There's no explanation given. However, it's significant that he was not dismissed from the palace before the IF's departure. Zeepvat points out that if Vyrubova's claim was true, it's incredibly unlikely he would have been allowed to remain.
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helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2014, 08:06:33 AM »
There's no explanation given. However, it's significant that he was not dismissed from the palace before the IF's departure. Zeepvat points out that if Vyrubova's claim was true, it's incredibly unlikely he would have been allowed to remain.

Clearly Vyrubova is not a completely valid source, although I don't think she would lie or misinform deliberately (I think she just saw things a certain way)... But I am still curious as to why she chose Derevenko specifically to make these accusations among all the others... Maybe she just did not like him personally? I suppose we will never really know.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2014, 09:17:32 AM »
There's no explanation given. However, it's significant that he was not dismissed from the palace before the IF's departure. Zeepvat points out that if Vyrubova's claim was true, it's incredibly unlikely he would have been allowed to remain.

Clearly Vyrubova is not a completely valid source, although I don't think she would lie or misinform deliberately (I think she just saw things a certain way)... But I am still curious as to why she chose Derevenko specifically to make these accusations among all the others... Maybe she just did not like him personally? I suppose we will never really know.

Yeah I've always seen her as a petulant woman given to holding grudges over trivial matters. Pure speculation of course but I wouldn't be at all surprised if at one point she had a heated disagreement with Derevenko. Perhaps it had to do with his or handling with Alexei. Could have been something as simple as Alexei playing what Anna considered to be a dangerous game at one time and her noticing his sailor nanny not paying "proper" attention. Perhaps she confronted him about it and a heated exchange ensued. Certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

So moving forward the two may no longer have been on good speaking terms. Once the revolution occurred Anna had her chance to get back at Derevenko and threw him under the bus.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2014, 09:35:22 AM »
Yeah I've always seen her as a petulant woman given to holding grudges over trivial matters. Pure speculation of course but I wouldn't be at all surprised if at one point she had a heated disagreement with Derevenko. Perhaps it had to do with his or handling with Alexei. Could have been something as simple as Alexei playing what Anna considered to be a dangerous game at one time and her noticing his sailor nanny not paying "proper" attention. Perhaps she confronted him about it and a heated exchange ensued. Certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
So moving forward the two may no longer have been on good speaking terms. Once the revolution occurred Anna had her chance to get back at Derevenko and threw him under the bus.

Yes, this certainly sounds very plausible.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2014, 10:25:41 AM »
Yeah I've always seen her as a petulant woman given to holding grudges over trivial matters. Pure speculation of course but I wouldn't be at all surprised if at one point she had a heated disagreement with Derevenko. Perhaps it had to do with his or handling with Alexei. Could have been something as simple as Alexei playing what Anna considered to be a dangerous game at one time and her noticing his sailor nanny not paying "proper" attention. Perhaps she confronted him about it and a heated exchange ensued. Certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
So moving forward the two may no longer have been on good speaking terms. Once the revolution occurred Anna had her chance to get back at Derevenko and threw him under the bus.

Yes, this certainly sounds very plausible.


I agree, Helen (and edubs). But in that vein this whole episode, if episode indeed it was, reminds  one of how shaky is the foundation on which history (or historiography?) rests. A few lines in a memoir by an IF insider and a man's whole reputation and character are almost irreparably damaged. Certainly the sources and understanding of commentators such as many of us here can help ameliorate this, and correct the record, so to speak, or at least lend greater perspective, but how many later readers of Vyrubova, over generations no less, will be familiar with these sources and differing perspectives, and question her damning comments? Very few, alas.

In reality, this is a common phenomenon in most people's lives, i.e., having one's character and reputation disproportionately, and negatively, influenced by the tales of an ex-spouse or ex-lover, disappointed friend, incompatible boss or employee. And who has a venue as widespread as a memoir in which to defend oneself?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 10:33:35 AM by Rodney_G. »

helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2014, 10:33:37 AM »
I agree, Helen (and edubs). But in that vein this whole episode, if episode indeed it was, reminds  one of how shaky is the foundation on which history (or historiography?) rests. A few lines in a memoir by an IF insider and a man's whole reputation and character are almost irreparably damaged. Certainly the sources and understanding of commentators such as many of us here can help ameliorate this, and correct the record, so to speak, or at least lend greater perspective, but how many later readers of Vyrubova, over generations no less, will be familiar with these sources and differing perspectives, and question her damning comments? Very few, alas.

Yes, absolutely! And I am sure we are all guilty of this... This is why we have to be really careful with what sources we use, and find valid collaborations before we accept something as absolute fact... History is only as good as its sources! Many popular history books have been passing the same information down, which may not have necessarily had good basis, but which had been accepted as solid fact. Which is why primary sources are preferable, but even then you may be getting subjective or biased information, depending on what it is. We just have to try to do the best we can, but I don't think we can ever get it 100% right, just due to nature of the history field.