Author Topic: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?  (Read 46874 times)

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Offline edubs31

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2014, 11:26:51 AM »
Good points.

It's interesting how modern technology gives us such a window into the lives of these more recent historical characters and yet there is still so much unknown. Comforting in a way I guess you could say. On one hand we have unfortunate situations, as Rodney pointed out with Derevenko, like character assassination. But on the other we retain a certain amount of privacy.

Ancient historical characters who didn't have photographs, or voice recordings or video footage, or much surviving in the way of written accounts are subject to much more interpretation and speculation. Compare what we know of Elizabeth II & Alexandra Feodorovna with William the Conqueror for example. Of course there is a trade-off to this. William the Conqueror may have had skeletons that history has never revealed, meanwhile we dissect every meddlesome action of Alexandra's into government affairs. On the other hand Alexandra's innocence and integrity in other areas is preserved in a way William's has been lost in the pages of history. Clearly a double-edged sword.

History, as has been said, is written by the victors. But I think that relates more to ancient history. These days history is written by the interpreters.
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helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2014, 11:33:48 AM »
History, as has been said, is written by the victors. But I think that relates more to ancient history. These days history is written by the interpreters.

Yes, but either way it is not an exact science...  but only someone's interpretation, or memory, for the most part. That's what we have to remember.

rosieposie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2014, 07:19:07 PM »
A bit of topic but I think Anna V reminds me of a "single white female" many places Alix went Anna V would go to.  In a way I think Anna V was a bit of wanting to be like Alix?  I could be wrong here.   However just as mention before I think Anna V had her own platform to speak about one of the most well known royal families and could say what she wanted because others could not refute it.   Did Derevenko ever say  anything or write his own memoirs about the Imperial Family?

helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2014, 07:59:39 AM »
 Did Derevenko ever say  anything or write his own memoirs about the Imperial Family?

I don't think so, he may have possibly been illiterate.. ? Not sure about that.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2014, 08:23:19 AM »
 Did Derevenko ever say  anything or write his own memoirs about the Imperial Family?

I don't think so, he may have possibly been illiterate.. ? Not sure about that.

Amazing to think an illiterate could have ever gained access to the imperial family. I realize his role didn't require a lot of formal education but it's still interesting.

Then again, Rasputin managed to make his way into the inner-circle too.
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helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2014, 08:53:06 AM »
Amazing to think an illiterate could have ever gained access to the imperial family. I realize his role didn't require a lot of formal education but it's still interesting.

Then again, Rasputin managed to make his way into the inner-circle too.

I don't know for a fact that he was, but based on who he was it wouldn't surprise me... And yes, Rasputin was only semi-literate, I think. This may have appealed to the imperial couple even more, because they saw it as being part of the people, and not the aristocracy they were used to dealing with...

rosieposie

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2014, 09:00:34 PM »
 Did Derevenko ever say  anything or write his own memoirs about the Imperial Family?

I don't think so, he may have possibly been illiterate.. ? Not sure about that.

Amazing to think an illiterate could have ever gained access to the imperial family. I realize his role didn't require a lot of formal education but it's still interesting.


I think Derevenko worked up the ranks and was used for physical protection and looking after Alexei then his educational purposes that is what Alexei's tutors were for.   

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2014, 06:36:56 AM »
 Did Derevenko ever say  anything or write his own memoirs about the Imperial Family?

I don't think so, he may have possibly been illiterate.. ? Not sure about that.

Illiterate? Where on earth did that come from?
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Rodney_G.

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2014, 04:26:55 PM »
  Did Derevenko ever say  anything or write his own memoirs about the Imperial Family?

I don't think so, he may have possibly been illiterate.. ? Not sure about that.

Illiterate? Where on earth did that come from?

I hope it didn't come from his not writing a memoir. He didn't live long beyond the Revolution in any event. Because  he came from a different class than those who wrote extended works about the IF after their deaths, his observations and thoughts about them might be even more valuable. Certainly he had  a rare insider's vantage point. In any event, to state the obvious, he wasn't selected as Alexei's nanny  for his pedagogical skills, unless that concept included certain socialization and character-building factors, which Derevenko did provide to the best of his ability.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2014, 04:35:11 AM »
There were high levels of illiteracy in Russia then. Was Derevenko a volunteer in the Imperial Navy or a conscript? If the latter, it is far from impossible that he was illiterate when he joined.

Ann

helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2014, 10:24:20 AM »
There were high levels of illiteracy in Russia then. Was Derevenko a volunteer in the Imperial Navy or a conscript? If the latter, it is far from impossible that he was illiterate when he joined.

Ann

Yes, exactly.  Extremely high illiteracy rate in Russia during that time, so if Derevenko did not come from aristocracy, which I don't think he did, it would have been highly probably that would have been at least partially illiterate.  http://www.sociostudies.org/journal/articles/140626/

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2014, 05:01:31 PM »
My take on this matter Anna V memoirs are not 100% reliable. I think Ron Moe in his book on Rasputin points this out. Her marriage failed because of her not her husband who dies in 1919 of Spanish influenza. Also note no other source mentions this incident. If they knew Derevenko was mistreating their son Nicholas and Alexandra would have had him fired in a heartbeat. It also does not make sense for him to do this for a number of other reasons: People were still calling Alexei "the Heir" even when he was at Tobolsk. According to Romanov Autumn Alexei wrote at Tobolsk  when I become Tsar. Nicholas had no right to write Alexei out of succession. We do know Derevenko was older than nagorny was married and had two sons. He was probably a senior NCO in the navy in 1917. If you were a senior NCO in the Russian army or Navy after 25 years of service you could take and pass a exam you would be made an officer. His sons were also going to get an education at the IFs expense and could either go to a military academy or college. According to GDS Olga A.  Also I don't think anyone in March 1917 in Russia thought that this was the end of the monarchy. So this guy has a lot to lose. Derevenko and Nagorny were both picked men of the pick of the Russian navy the Garde Equipage. N&A does mention Derevenko growing at Alexei and his two sons if play got to rough. It could be he may as some people on this site have pointed out unintentionaly offended Anna V in someway. I have read in another posting that Derevenko was killed fighting in the White army against the Reds. I don't think his family was in any position even if they knew about it to really contradict Anna Vs Memoirs.  This is because it just wasn't all that "healthy" in Communist Russia to have relatives who fought on the White side during the Civil war.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2014, 05:47:08 AM »
Given that he was a 'lower deck' serviceman, Derevenko would certainly not have come from the aristocracy. But literacy did reach beyond the aristocracy - Russia had clerks and shopkeepers as well as peasants.

Ann

helenazar

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2014, 10:14:59 AM »
My take on this matter Anna V memoirs are not 100% reliable.

IMO, no one's memoirs are 100% reliable.. Remember, unlike diaries, memoirs are usually written many years after the events they are describing... Vyrubova's memoirs are just recollections of how she remembered/saw events... Very subjective... As are other people's memoirs... I usually take them all with a grain of salt :)

Rodney_G.

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Re: Derevenko the turncoat-whatever happened to him?
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2014, 01:16:28 PM »
Further analysis of Anna's claim re Derevenko suggests it's even less plausible. I haven't read it in some time, but...

Does she claim to have personally observed him berating Alexei? If she had , that would tend to explain why there is no other corroboration of her story. After all , Derevenko is soon out of the picture and in no position to rebut what she wrote. In fact I think her memoir may have appeared after his death.

That leaves Alexei himself. He lived about fifteen months more after the alleged mistreatment, in close confinement with his family and family sympathizers. What is the likelihood that , if Derevenko had mistreated him and shocked him thereby, that he wouldn't have confided this fact and how he felt about it, to his father,mother, Anastasia, OTM, Gilliard, or anyone else he felt comfortable with or close to? It would have been the natural and easy thing to do. But none of these intimates ever mentioned the alleged incident. This alone is very telling and make's Anna's assertion highly improbable, indeed, false.