Author Topic: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?  (Read 49692 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AkshayChavan

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2004, 02:23:19 AM »
But I think we are moving away from the picture. Tzar may have been the richest but what was the size of yussoupoff fortune? It must have been huge since I have heard about estate on caspian with lots of oil ---- "The Black Gold"

AkshayChavan

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2004, 11:51:34 AM »
How much would 300 million  be in today's equivalent?

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2004, 12:39:21 PM »
12 billion US$
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

JD

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2004, 12:49:29 PM »
really?? i thought the calculation was roughly  $1 pre=war = ~$15 currently, maybe more like 16 or 17.  that would put it at "only" 4.5-5 billion.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2004, 01:07:02 PM »
300million $ or rubles? Clarke writes that 1 1913 ruble = $40.
for $, your calculation is more or less correct

JD

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2004, 01:54:31 PM »
I believe the (supposed, I've only seen it from one source) Times estimate was in dollars.  

I had no idea the ruble was worth so much. Really puts the Tsar's list of expenses on this site in perspective. 400 dollars per haircut!

james_h

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2004, 05:02:49 AM »


In "Lost fortune of the Tsars" Prince Felix was qouted as saying that the Yusupov fortune was around $500 Million US dollars

Which according to my estimates would be Around US$105 Billion today ???

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2004, 09:05:13 AM »
not sure what math you are using, but $500 million in 1913 is about equivalent to $6-7 billion today. $1 1913 = $16-17 2004

james_h

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2004, 01:22:35 AM »
Richest Person Ever
The wealth of America's John D Rockefeller was estimated at $900 million in 1913, equivalent to $189.6 billion today. His first job, in the 1850s, earned him a wage of just $3.57 per week, but he was given a pay rise and promotion within months. The zeroes on his pay packet multiplied, and by 1913, he had earned himself an estimated $900 million. Having made his fortune in oil, Rockefeller retired in 1897. By 1922 he had given away $1 billion to charity and to his family. Rockefeller died in 1937, but still remains, without doubt, the richest person ever!

"Guinness world records"

It stands to reason That If Zenaide Yusupovas fortune was $500 Million in 1918 it would be worth US$105.4 Billion Today.


I trust the financial experts at Guinness know what they are talking about. Check It Out www.guinnessworldrecords.com  (Richest person ever)

JD

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2004, 06:53:33 PM »
Tt's also a well known fact that one pre-war dollar equaled about 15 (maybe a dollar or two more by now) of today's dollars.

I would like to know Guiness's criteria.  It's certainly not a straight calculation.  My guess would be that they compared his wealth to the average or median or something.  In today's dollar terms, 900 million = about 15 billion.  There's no question about that.

I've always wondered, though, how these tycoons, in an age before income tax, before responsiblity to shareholders, before strong unions, before anti-trust action - wouldn't even be the richest americans today, when we have all that stuff.  

So my guess is that Guiness evaluated wealth in relative terms.

James, if you really believe that 1 pre-war dollar was worth 211 2004 dollars, I'd suggest you look up dollar prices of normal goods in the time of the Edwardian Era.  I imagine you will find them horribly inflated.

james_h

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2004, 05:57:05 AM »

If Any one is interested there is an enormously thick volume in the russian state archives that lists in it's entirety ALL the Yusupov treasures. It's grey and about 3 or 4 inches thick.

BRITISH_BLUE

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2004, 04:14:23 AM »
Russian Imperial Wealth is simply conjecture and open to exaggeration. In practical terms a man, or family cannot own, or control, a  country the size of  Russia. The point being can a man own something he has never seen, never visited, and is unaware of its existance? Can a  man own people living in remote outbacks?

In all probablity the *Tithe system* of extracting [either] State taxes and/or private treaty rents applied on most  Russian agricutural land Holdings and private land rental dealings. A 10% tithe [or 10% pvt rent] was the European norm then and one wonders is someone confusing tithe taxes and ordinary modest Land rents with a personages nett income. From this State tithe money you would have the upkeep of State Services including Defence, Navy, Army, and the running of Parliament, Govt Services and the upkeep of Public buildings including new buildings and roads. Etc.

You must then take into account that [real] negotiable money in those far off days was gold bullion and in lieu of it the serfs paid  their rents by bartering crops and produce which had to be sold [sharecropping] State agricultural land holdings may have been worth 10 cents per acre, but perhaps 35% of the Russian outlying areas, e,g Siberia, was worthless, free for the working, or at nominal pepper corn rents, a rent that was not worth collecting.  

The Tsar and the Yussopovs and Rockefeller and the Vanderbilts were certainly rich. But to put this in some sort of acceptable context a 15th century London Milkmaid called Mary Grosvenor had land - which today her  descendents own and due to accumulated interest and rising property values means her family is has rich as any of these great notables and no one passes adverse comment on  it, because its a simple fact of life.

So when you look at the Tsars or the Yusspovs wealth, what you see is the result of many many years of accumulated wealth by an industrious /  Fine Arts and Antiques minded family whose famous Palaces and grand Estates brightened up their Countrys history for 500 years. They are no worse,  or  better, than most USA robber barons. And robber barons are needed to raise standards in public taste and fashion - without them what a drab life we would all lead.  Could i say maybe we have too many serfs and  labourers in the world and we need another 10% / 15% of the super super-rich to progress?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by BRITISH_BLUE »

james_h

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2004, 04:23:51 AM »
Actually the Russian Gold reserves at the time were the "largest in the world" approx. $15 Billion.1.
Also the rubles was backed up 98% by gold.

1. Discovery Channel Documentary "Fabulous Fortunes"

BRITISH_BLUE

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2004, 03:32:25 AM »
Historical facts.

The perilous financial state of Russia under the Tsars. > source History Orb. org.

Between 1893-1896 foreigners invested [in Russia] 144.9 million roubles compared to 103.7 million from domestic sources. In the next three years the gap reached unprecedented levels with foreigners investing 450.7 million roubles and domestic sources only 111.8 million. The large increase in investment allowed the Tsars Russia to boast one of the fastest growing economies with an annual growth rate per capita of 3.5%.

The fortune of the Tsar a  Myth >
See Lost fortune of the Tsars by W Clarke. >

William Clarke's book takes off where Harvey Pitcher's stops, with the collapse of Tsarist Russia. He had produced something like a 'financial history' of the fall of the Romanovs. Mr. Clarke's researches have been conducted over many years and in many places and his description of his own detective work lets readers share his own excitement in unravelling a combination of mysteries. He uses a vast array of sources and puts his own financial acumen - he was at one time Financial Editor of The Times and head of the British Invisible Exports Council - to good effect in disentangling the complicated financial questions involved in the collapse of one of history's greatest empires.

Mr. Clarke discusses a wide variety of questions but first re-tells the story of the collapse of 1917-1918 and of the murder of the Imperial Russian Family. (For some odd reason the Romanovs are frequently referred to as a 'royal' family.) The real value of the book lies in Part III which is labelled, 'Fortune'. William Clarke tackles the question of the alleged wealth of the Romanovs' - in gold, jewels and 'hidden' bank accounts in Europe and America. Here his research is quite amazing even if his conclusions are, to those who prefer legends to facts, disappointing.

The author's conclusion is that the 'Romanov fortune' outside Russia amounted to investments in Germany in the names of the Tsar's children and in that of the Tsarina along with some investments by the Court, also in Germany. In addition there were investments by the Tsar's government. These last investments were large and have often been confused with the Imperial Family's investments. The Tsar himself had closed his foreign accounts because of the war. There is, in short, no vast Romanov fortune waiting to be claimed. Even the Imperial Russian government's investments were set against Russian indebtedness to Allied powers. One is also grateful that he has laid to rest once and for all the story that Queen Mary 'cheated' Russian exiles out of their jewels by buying them below their true value.

Why should anyone be surprised that Nicholas II wished to invest in war loans after his abdication? He was a very patriotic Russian who wished to win the war into which he had led the Russian Empire. To say that Alfonso XIII's wishing to co-ordinate with George V about helping Russian emigres is a sign of 'male chauvinism' is peculiar to say the least. It really was a ease of common sense. Like so many modern books, English clergymen are referred to by the American use of that nomenclature. Thus we have 'The Revd Tann's ...' for 'The Rev Mr Tann's ...'.

* Sources suggest that the mining of Gold under the Tsars reign was in *world terms minimal*, and that Russia was not a major producer then. >Source>  The History of Gold Mining in Russia.

The total output of gold in the Russian Empire between 1719 and 1800 made up 22,491.1 kg.[55 000 Lb] 25 ton> One truck load.  Amazingly the famous Russian gold placers were yet to be found. Actually presence of gold in river sediments was known but nobody possessed the skills to extract it! Needless to say crushing and grinding only led to dilution of paydirt and kept making it uneconomic.

In 1813 a little girl Katerina Bogdanova found a gold nugget in the basin of the Neiva River (Mid-Urals) and brought it to a local official. Instead of an award she received a punishment (whipping) and was ordered to keep her mouth shut. Probably, the local authorities did not want any social disturbance and feared to ignite an uncontrolled gold rush in the area populated by serfs . Nearly at the same time a hunter who lived next to the Berezovsky gold diggings found a nugget when digging a trap for a deer and failed to keep silent. Somebody reported to the authorities, the hunter was then severely whipped and died shortly after that having taken the mystery of the locality of his find to grave.

But a talented local mining foreman Lev Brusnitsyn got interested in this story and convinced the director of the local mine to send a party to explore the probable gold occurrence. The party had been stubbornly test pitting the toe of a slope of a river valley for several months until Brusnitsyn chanced to place several pits in the river bottom. Then he tested the dirt in different portions of a hard rock metallurgical circuit and found that sluicing was good enough to extract payable gold! Thus the first Russian alluvial gold deposit was found.

Brusnitsyn discovered several placers in the vicinity of the Berezovsky hard rock diggings and in 1823 there were already about 200 alluvial operations in the Urals. Privately owned operations produced twice more than the state owned ones. 11500 workers were employed by them and the annual output totaled at about 1600kg (2000kg with hard rock operations).

Due to the alluvial gold the output of this metal in the Urals grew up to 8.2t in 1870, 9.8t in 1880 and reached its peak in 1892 - 12.8t. Later with depletion of the richest placers it began to decline and in 1913 made up 8.2t.

Many famous nuggets were found in the alluvial deposits of the Urals in the XIX century. The biggest one (36.02kg) nowadays may be seen in the Russian Diamond Fund in Moscow, Kremlin.

The newly grown Russian gold mining business began to look at the vast Siberian territories already in the mid-twenties of the XIX century. In 1826 the Crown granted the first permissions to search for gold to several entrepreneurs and in early 30-s a wave of gold rush inundated mountainous areas of the Southern Siberia. The main method of prospecting was digging of test pits. Private companies did not bother about employment of educated professionals and many placers were discovered by simple prospectors who had never read a book on geology or mining in their lives. Those were prospectors (staratels) Masharov (nicknamed for his bush craft and luck The Napoleon of Taiga (Siberian bush), Ivanov, Shipalin, Zhmayev, Familtsev and many others who could recognize quartz, greenstones, ironstone and were able to see mineralized lineaments and knew basics of geomorphology.

Hundreds of alluvial deposits were found in late 20-s and 30-s of the XIX century in the mountains of Altay, Sayan, Eniseysky Kriazh. The discoveries and newly opened diggings attracted dozens if not hundreds of thousands of people many of which were former serfs who had run away from their landlords and factory owners. Most of them were the first free people out of many generations of those who belonged to the ìhostsî. The quest for freedom and gold went together! It was a gold rush not smaller than any of those glorious ones which would occur a bit later in Australia, California, Alaska or South Africa.

The gold output in the south of Western and Central Siberia grew up from 4.8t in 1842 up to 17.4 in 1855 (absolute record) and then began to decline (9.2t in 1875 and 6.3t in 1913). It put Russia to the first place amongst the gold mining nations for more than a decade before discoveries of gold in Victoria (Australia) and California.

Up until 1860 the alluvial gold mining was conducted very unprofessionally by numerous open cuts targeted at the riches pods and paystreaks. Human muscles and horses predominantly did earthmoving and the paydirt was washed on primitive sluices. After 1861 with the abolition of serfdom and rapid industrial development the gold mining became more and more advanced and mechanized. It was in the 60-s when disintegration and screening bowls and trommels were introduced. But horsepower remained the main earthmoving force till the end of the XIX century when dredging was successfully introduced with assistance of the Western professionals.

This confirms all my suspicions - that the people were breaking free of thier own accord and were enterprising  individuals. These people might well have built the new Russia if the situation was different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by BRITISH_BLUE »

AkshayChavan

  • Guest
Re: The Yusupov fortune before 1917 - richer than Romanovs?
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2005, 05:22:18 PM »
I would like to start a discussion on this topic. Were Yussupovs richer than Romanovs. Much has been said about the imperial wealth. However i feel Yussupovs as well as other families were wealthier. To support this argument i would like to put forward the theory of "Potential" and "Actual" which we are taught in Business Management.
        The Romanovs may have had vast estates and jewels but all of this was "Potential" wealth. The Czar could not sell the Winter palace or Catherine palace on will. Similarly the art and jewel collection could not be touched. In contrast the Yusupovs could sell their palaces and art collection (not that they needed to!) on free will. If there is something that you cannot sell then it is not exactly "wealth".
      Tha other factor is that i believe due to heavy expenses like allowances to grand dukes and staff salaries , the privy purse would run out in october itself. In contrast , i believe Yussupovs did not have such heavy expenditure. In addition they had more cash generating assets like businesses and stud farms.
     Thus while Romanovs had more "Potential" wealth , the Yusupovs had more "Actual" Wealth.
     I would like to know opinion of other members on this.