Author Topic: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar  (Read 49299 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tobik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« on: November 11, 2005, 07:30:02 AM »
I'm not sure how many people know that one of the pistols which was used to kill the Romanov family (indeed it may even be Yurovsky's own) is on display in the Museum of Contamporary History in Moscow.

I have long been in two minds whether it is correct to display the weapon or not and have eventually come to the conclusion that it probably is.  After all if the dagger that Brutus used to kill Caesar still survived, it would surely also be on display.

I'd be interested to know your (unsentimental) views.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tobik »

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2005, 10:20:56 AM »
I have posted a Colt 45 which would almost match the one Yurovsky claimed he used to kill Nicholas II and a Mauser which Ermakov claimed he used to  kill Nicholas II.

I'll go and get them and add some other interesting information about the guns.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2005, 10:23:36 AM »


Colt 45 [dated 1914 and not the actual gune used]



Jacob Yurovsky claimed he used a Colt 45.  See his Testimony 1 Feb 1934:
>>Nicholas had put Alexei on the chair and stood in such a way, that he shielded him. Alexei sat in the left corner from the entrance, and so far as I can remember, I said to Nicholas approximately this: His royal and close relatives inside the country and abroad were trying to save him, but the Soviet of Workers' Deputies resolved to shoot them. He asked "What?" and turned toward Alexei. At that moment I shot him and killed him outright. He did not get time to face us to get an answer. At that moment disorganized, not orderly firing began. The room was small, but everybody could come in and carry out the shooting according to the set order. But many shot through the doorway. Bullets began to ricochet because the wall was brick. Moreover, the firing intensified when the victims shouts arose. I managed to stop the firing but with great difficulty.<<
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2005, 10:27:43 AM »


Mauser.  A photo of the actual gun which Ermakov claimed he used to kill Nicholas II.



Ermakov who's photo was taken near the actual mass grave found in Pig's Meadow.

Thread on Ermakov:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1100022098

Quote
Peter Ermakov:
 
"Unlike Yurovsky, Ermakov positively relished his role in the Romanov murders."  wrote King and Wilson, p. 512 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  
 
He had given his Mauser revolver to the Ekaterinburg museum and often took his friends to see the gun which he claimed he had used to  shoot and kill Nicholas II.
 
Evidently, it was Ermakov and not Yurovsky who made public appearances and voiced in detail what had occured in the basement of the Impatiev House on the night of 16/17  July 1918.
 
Unlike Yurovsky,  Ermakov was never censured but p. 513 "rewarded,  given promotions, better apartments and even additional pay."  Even his retirement pay was different.  He received a "personal pension".
 
Died 1952 and given full honors.
 
It appears to what I've read,  the Soviets view Ermakov with a "proud eye" more than they did Yurovsky.  What was the reason?  I thought Ermakov was the "drunkard" and the one who had been "unreliable"  
 
AGRBear



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2005, 10:39:04 AM »
Some interesting facts about the Colt 45 which Yurovsky claimed he used to shoot Nicholas II.

Quote
Some question about the US Colt 45 which Yurovsky claims he used to shoot Nicholas II.

THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR by Shay McNeal  p. 164

She talks about the Colt 45 which  is said by the Bolsheviks to have been the weapon which killed Nicholas II.

"It's serial number was 71905.  In tracking down the weapon, I obtained additional information the Colt Company historian Kathleen Holt.  If the serial number 71905 were followed by a letter, then the gun would have been part of a Colt shipment to Russia, possibly through France.  But if there was no letter following the serial number, then the history of Yurovsky's gun wold be quite different.  Colt's archives indicate that the gun model 1911 serial number 71905 (without any letter tagged on at the end) was manufactures in 1914 and was sold to the United States government.  It was delivered to the Ordnance Officer at Fort Thomas, Kentucky on 30 April 1914, one of 150 weapons received.  The 45s were issued to officers, military police and pilots only.

"Thus the self-proclaimed leader of the assassins, at least according to the serial number Radzinsky gave, was using an American army issue gun.  Yet America was not supposed to have a military presence in Russia in July 1918.  The US finally sent troops to Siberia approxiamately six weeks later under the command of General William Graves.  If the serial number Radzinsky quotes is right, then how did the Colt 45 from Kentucky end up in the hands of Yurovsky?"

How did a gun that supposedly arrived with the Americans six weeks after the execution of Nicholas II get to Ekaternburg and be labeled as the murder weapon six weeks earlier?

I think this is a good question to ask by McNeal or anyone else who's interested in the US Colt 45 which was said to have murdered Nicholas II.

AGRBear

PS for more information on Americans Who Fought Bolshviks see:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=revolution;action=display;num=1112900912


>>How did a gun that supposedly arrived with the Americans six weeks after the execution of Nicholas II get to Ekaternburg and be labeled as the murder weapon six weeks earlier?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2005, 10:51:15 AM »
Does anyone know where I can find a photo of the actual Colt 45 which Yurovsky said he used to kill Nicholas II???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tsarina_Liz

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
  • Existence is not a predicate.  - Kant
    • View Profile
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2006, 11:32:06 AM »
I am having a hard time finding specific information on the pistols, revolvers, and rifles (with and without bayonets) used by the men in the basement.  Does anyone know where I can find this information?

More specifically, does anyone know what the men assigned to specific members of the Imperial Family were using?  For example, the shooter assigned to Marie was using which model weapon?  

Since I know a little about guns, I have a fairly good idea and working understanding of what was used in that basement but specifics would be much more helpful especially when looking at arguments about wounds that IF would have received before they were taken out of the basement and how they related to their possible survival.  
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2006, 11:41:12 AM »
You may find that info in Fate of the Romanovs, by King & Wilson. I think Robert Massie also discusses the weapons in The Final Chapter.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Tsarina_Liz

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
  • Existence is not a predicate.  - Kant
    • View Profile
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2006, 02:57:23 PM »
I don't remember seeing anything in The Final Chapter, but I will go through FOTR.  Thanks,
- Liz
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2006, 04:32:37 PM »
I may have misremembered -- it's definitely in the special FOTR edition of Altantis Magazine. You may find some basic info in FOTR itself, though.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2006, 07:55:45 PM »
In addition to FOTR, information is contained in Radzinsky's biography of Nicholas II and MacNeil's Plot to Rescue books. I don't know how properly sourced their information is, but it's there.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2006, 09:36:36 AM »
Quote


Mauser.  A photo of the actual gun which Ermakov claimed he used to kill Nicholas II.



Ermakov who's photo was taken near the actual mass grave found in Pig's Meadow.

Thread on Ermakov:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1100022098



AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2006, 09:37:45 AM »
Quote


Colt 45 [dated 1914 and not the actual gune used]



Jacob Yurovsky claimed he used a Colt 45.  See his Testimony 1 Feb 1934:
>>Nicholas had put Alexei on the chair and stood in such a way, that he shielded him. Alexei sat in the left corner from the entrance, and so far as I can remember, I said to Nicholas approximately this: His royal and close relatives inside the country and abroad were trying to save him, but the Soviet of Workers' Deputies resolved to shoot them. He asked "What?" and turned toward Alexei. At that moment I shot him and killed him outright. He did not get time to face us to get an answer. At that moment disorganized, not orderly firing began. The room was small, but everybody could come in and carry out the shooting according to the set order. But many shot through the doorway. Bullets began to ricochet because the wall was brick. Moreover, the firing intensified when the victims shouts arose. I managed to stop the firing but with great difficulty.<<

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2006, 09:39:47 AM »
Quote
Some question about the US Colt 45 which Yurovsky claims he used to shoot Nicholas II.

THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR by Shay McNeal  p. 164

She talks about the Colt 45 which  is said by the Bolsheviks to have been the weapon which killed Nicholas II.

"It's serial number was 71905.  In tracking down the weapon, I obtained additional information the Colt Company historian Kathleen Holt.  If the serial number 71905 were followed by a letter, then the gun would have been part of a Colt shipment to Russia, possibly through France.  But if there was no letter following the serial number, then the history of Yurovsky's gun wold be quite different.  Colt's archives indicate that the gun model 1911 serial number 71905 (without any letter tagged on at the end) was manufactures in 1914 and was sold to the United States government.  It was delivered to the Ordnance Officer at Fort Thomas, Kentucky on 30 April 1914, one of 150 weapons received.  The 45s were issued to officers, military police and pilots only.

"Thus the self-proclaimed leader of the assassins, at least according to the serial number Radzinsky gave, was using an American army issue gun.  Yet America was not supposed to have a military presence in Russia in July 1918.  The US finally sent troops to Siberia approxiamately six weeks later under the command of General William Graves.  If the serial number Radzinsky quotes is right, then how did the Colt 45 from Kentucky end up in the hands of Yurovsky?"

How did a gun that supposedly arrived with the Americans six weeks after the execution of Nicholas II get to Ekaternburg and be labeled as the murder weapon six weeks earlier?

I think this is a good question to ask by McNeal or anyone else who's interested in the US Colt 45 which was said to have murdered Nicholas II.

AGRBear

PS for more information on Americans Who Fought Bolshviks see:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=revolution;action=display;num=1112900912

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Authentic murder weapons?/Gun that shot the last Tsar
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2006, 09:46:19 AM »
I'm looking for the list and will place it here when I find it.

Quote

...[in part]...


Yourvsky's account:

p. 634 LIFELONG PASSION

>>Yurovsky  On the morning of the 16th....
Twleve revolvers were prepared, and it was decided who would shoot at whom.  Conrade Filipp [Goloschekin] informed me that a lorry would come at midnight, that the newcomers were to be admitted on giving the password, and the bodies handed over to them, to be taken away for burial."<<

....

ARBear


THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson p. 297:
>>...He ordered Medvedev to collect the revolvers from al of the guards on exterior duty.  When Medvedev returned, he placed the assembled collection on the desk in the commandant's office, leaving Yurovsky to sort through the arssenal with which the crime would be committed.  Fourteen guns were used that night.  There were six pistoles: a .28-caliber** (6.43 mm) Browning; a .32-caliber (7.63* mm) Browning; two .45-caliber (11.43) American Colts; and two .32-caliber (7.63 mm) Mausers; and eight revolvers:  a .42-caliber (10.66 mm) Smith and Wesson; four .30 - caliber (7.62 mm) Nagants; and three .35-caliber (9mm) Nagants.  The most powerful weapons were the two [p. 298] Maussers, with a velocity of 1,400 feet per second.  Of the fourteen guns, nine--all of the Nagants, and the Colts --used gunpower to fire their bullets, causing a discharge of smoke and caustic fumes.  Among them, they held a total of 103 shots.<<


AGRBear

PS
*& **Error in typing corrected:
Quote
...[in part]...

Dear Mrs. Bear,

Using the information that you posted above, I started to research the technical specifications of the fireams that you listed. I did however find some inaccuracies in this list which may simply be explained by mistyping. For example:

.28 caliber (6.43 mm) Browning- Browning did not make a .28 cal. but rather a .25 cal. pistol.

.32-caliber (7.73 mm) Browning- Metric conversion of a .32 cal. cartridge is 7.63 mm rather than 7.73 mm.
....

David

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152