King Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies and his wife Maria Carolina

[ivanushka]

only MT's affection (one has to remember that she was the 2nd favourite daughter after Mimi and that many of her troubles were after MT died) kept MT  from exploding like she did with Maria Amalia.

I'd always thought that Marie Antoinette was Maria Theresa's daughter after Mimi because she was sweet, the baby of the family and always gave the impression of being the most obedient of the three sisters (the other two being Caroline and Amalia) in following her mother's instructions.  I'm probably wrong but that was the impression I had.

[ivanushka]

Her sister Antoinette was lazy, and I do speculate what would happen had MC married Louis XVI instead. I seriously doubt that something like "the affair of the diamond necklace" would ever happen.

I speculate too.  For one thing I wonder whether the marriage would have remained sexless for the first seven years if Caroline had been the bride.  I suspect that she would have complained to Louis XV (who was her godfather) for him to put pressure on Louis XVI to take the necessary steps without delay.  It's quite possible that they would have had their first child by the time Louis XVI became King which would have given more certainty to the continuation of the dynasty (particularly if the child in question was a boy).  I also don't think Caroline would have spent nearly as much time partying as Antoinette did in her first years as Queen.  She was clearly far more interested in politics and the exercise of power than her younger sister and would probably have tried to involve herself in government as much as she was allowed to do so - which would probably have been a great deal as she certaintly appears to have been a far stronger personality than Louis XVI.  Whether such involvement would have benefitted France is debatable but thngs could well have gone very differently in France had Caroline been Queen.

[CountessKate]

I speculate too.  For one thing I wonder whether the marriage would have remained sexless for the first seven years if Caroline had been the bride.  I suspect that she would have complained to Louis XV (who was her godfather) for him to put pressure on Louis XVI to take the necessary steps without delay.  It's quite possible that they would have had their first child by the time Louis XVI became King which would have given more certainty to the continuation of the dynasty (particularly if the child in question was a boy).  I also don't think Caroline would have spent nearly as much time partying as Antoinette did in her first years as Queen.  She was clearly far more interested in politics and the exercise of power than her younger sister and would probably have tried to involve herself in government as much as she was allowed to do so - which would probably have been a great deal as she certaintly appears to have been a far stronger personality than Louis XVI.  Whether such involvement would have benefitted France is debatable but thngs could well have gone very differently in France had Caroline been Queen.

I'm not convinced Maria Carolina would have complained to Louis XV about her husband's sexual problems which she would have been as ignorant about as her sister - her own wedding night came as a horrible shock to her, and it seems unlikely that she would have gone to her grandfather-in-law to complain about so intimate a problem which she might well have thought her own fault, just because he was her godfather.  I agree she was unlikely to have turned to partying to work off her frustrations and worries as Marie Antoinette did, and she was certainly uninterested in fashion and jewels to anything approaching the same extent - so she would probably not have been a 'Madame Deficit'.  Her initial tendencies politically, like many of her siblings, were towards enlightened liberalism, which of course closed down with the excesses of the French revolution, so indeed things may have gone differently in France with a Queen Caroline.  On the other hand, the French government was in a pretty rotten state, and while Marie Antoinette was the focus for much of the rage against the regime, another scapegoat might well have been found in some royal favorite (and Maria Carolina was just as guilty as her sister of favoritism if not to exactly the same extent).  But I suspect that she might have been a bit more efficient at escaping than her sister.

[prinzheinelgirl]

I'd always thought that Marie Antoinette was Maria Theresa's daughter after Mimi because she was sweet, the baby of the family and always gave the impression of being the most obedient of the three sisters (the other two being Caroline and Amalia) in following her mother's instructions.  I'm probably wrong but that was the impression I had.

There seems to be a quotation in a letter by Maria Theresa to one of her daughters, which confirmed that MT was fond of Maria Carolina and that next to the recipient of said letter, it was MC who also showed MT true affection and willingness to follow her advice. There seems to be some confusion, whether said letter was written to Mimi or Marie Antoinette. Based on the general warmth/openness/tone of the letter, I'm inclined to believe it was written to Mimi, not Marie Antoinette.

[Eric_Lowe]

Mimi has always been a favorite to their mother but a bane to her siblings.

[joahannagabriela]

can anyone help me identify who are these princess?

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=429&FP=13349862&E=2K1KTSGT0TM3L&SID=2K1KTSGT0TM3L&New=T&Pic=231&SubE=2C6NU0C4XNVD

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=429&FP=13349862&E=2K1KTSGT0TM3L&SID=2K1KTSGT0TM3L&New=T&Pic=260&SubE=2C6NU0CL11NN

Thanks!!!

[CountessKate]

I'd be inclined to identify the first as Marie Antonia of Naples, later Princess of the Asturias, as it somewhat resembles other portraits of her at the Reunion des Musees nationaux:

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=6&FP=16848634&E=2K1KTSGTI0F81&SID=2K1KTSGTI0F81&New=T&Pic=1&SubE=2C6NU0CVC72A

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=6&FP=16848634&E=2K1KTSGTI0F81&SID=2K1KTSGTI0F81&New=T&Pic=5&SubE=2C6NU0MJ3WPS

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=6&FP=16848634&E=2K1KTSGTI0F81&SID=2K1KTSGTI0F81&New=T&Pic=3&SubE=2C6NU0CVCAVT

Her eyes are slightly more drooping than those of at least some of her sisters, her nose is long and has a rounded end, and she has a small, pursed mouth.  Her sister Maria Luisa had similar eyes but her nose was much larger at the end.  It is really hard to tell the sisters apart in these images, but that's my view on balance.

The second is harder as the child's features haven't formed as much, but I wonder about Maria Luisa, later Grand Duchess of Tuscany, as she seems to have the rather bulbous-tipped nose and a slightly longer mouth:

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=8&FP=16857250&E=2K1KTSGTIQYHK&SID=2K1KTSGTIQYHK&New=T&Pic=6&SubE=2C6NU0CR214R

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Joseph_Dorffmeister_001.jpg

[CountessKate]

Maria Carolina looks a bit grim in this portrait - clearly not a happy woman:

[prinzheinelgirl]

thanks for the portrait.

well, she has that lovely skin and slim build. at least, she seems appropriately dressed although no jewels. any idea what year it was done?

maria carolina's portraits always struck me as a bit "harsh" looking, IMHO. she only appeared "soft" in that one by anton raphael mengs (as a young queen) and in the family portrait by angelica kauffmann. i guess painters only soften her up if that was asked.....  

incidentally, from her portraits, mc does not seem to resemble her mother much either. in a study on the imperial children, it was said that only she and maria johanna among the girls (maria elisabeth was not included in the study) resembled their mother physically. i'm wondering if she did take after her grandfather charles VI, even with her blue eyes.  

[CountessKate]

The date given for the portrait of Maria Carolina is c.1800 but I don't believe that for a second.  The hair and the gown suggest a dating of around 1785-1790.

 

I certainly see in Maria Carolina a resemblance to Charles VI - she has his elongated face and high forehead (which Marie Antoinette also inherited), with a tendency to jowls around the jaw, and the shapes of their mouths were very similar (the second portrait is rather fuzzy but shows Charles VI's high forehead).  Her colouring was, as you say, that of her fair, blue-eyed parents, however.

[prinzheinelgirl]

The portraits above of Charles VI indeed show a certain resemblance to Maria Carolina. I was quite curious on whom she took after in looks, and  looked up several portraits of both her paternal and maternal grandparents.  

A portrait of MC holding her baby son Leopoldo shows an older woman than in the previous post. I also very much doubt it was done circa 1800.  

[CountessKate]

An interesting joint portrait of Ferdinand and Maria Carolina, by 'the circle' of Francesco Liani :

[Eric_Lowe]

Both at the hight of their attractiveness. Where is this paining now ? In Naples ?

[CountessKate]

The painting is in the Museo Civico di Foggia.

[Eric_Lowe]

In Naples ?