Romania and Transilvania

[anabel]

Hi!

First of all, I would like to appologize to you Laurra, I really used harsh words, but I easily become passionate at this topic! Well, maybe we could use this tread to discuss the Romanian-Hungarian relationship from the early 1900s until today and also Missy´s actions in Paris in 1920. I swear to be as neutral as possible!

[Laura_]

Dear Anabel never mind it's ok with me,it was  also my fault, i have a very passionately way of defending Missy:)
Linnea,thanks for that great map and you are right...i don't know why Hungarians were angry only with the Romanians and not with the other" land -robbers"  
well i have an opinion but i better shut up...

[bell_the_cat]

The problem was the large numbers of Hungarians who remained in Transylvania. The other territories (Croatia, Slovakia, the Vojvoidina, Burgenland), had less significant Hungarian minorities.

[frederika]

It has to be said that queen Marie's role was not helpfull in this. Hungary lost a lot of its rightfull land to Romania which was not fair. Transilvania had been a historic part of Hungary and was populated by Hungarians. The other places like Craotia and Bohiemia had not been parts of hungary and the hungarians new this. Its like germany losing Alsace Lorrain which has been a historic part of germany but was stollen from them. :-/

[anabel]

I totally agree with you, Frederika! The parts which went to Austria was mostly populated by Austrians, the parts which went to Czechoslowakia and to Jugoslavia by Slavic people. But the part which went to Romania, Transsylvania, had a very mixed population, with Hungarians, Germans, Romanians, etc. So it is a differnt case here. And we are especially sad as there the Hungarian way of life was the most original Hungarian which could be found (like traditions etc.). And it´s really not helpful if a queen begs to some presidents like a stupid little girl "Oh, we so dearly want Transsylvania, and...,and...". That´s not really diplomatic, I suppose! Until today the relationship is more than bad between this countries...

[Linnea]

well i have an opinion but i better shut up...

Please Laura, you don´t have to shut up, we are having a discussion here! Everybody should post their point of view, but stay polite in the same time...

[ilyala]

it was not like missy to be begging, first of all. while one can say a lot of things about her, she was very aware of her condition as princess and queen. she did not do begging.

second of all i will point out again: more than 50% of the population of transulvania was made up of romanians. for hundreds of years, transylvania was part of hungary, true, but most of its population was made up of romanians. what was even worse, they were completely ignored. romanians were not allowed to vote, were suppressed by the hungarian nobles, their religion was 'tolerated' (ie ignored) and all... while this kind of thing might work on a minority, this is not a very wise policy towards more than half of the population. it had to backfire at some point. you may call me biased but the fact of the matter is that there are more romanians than hungarians living in transylvania and on the 1st of december 1918 they voted the unification of transylvania with romania. the romanian government did not interfear with that. the union was not unconditioned, the transylvanians wanted some rules to be respected, but if those were agreed upon, they wanted to be part of romania. what happened after that was negotiation. the fact of the matter was that transylvania chose its own destiny. and i think it was a fair choice, considerring (i repeat) the VERY LARGE number of romanians living in there. as palimpsest mentioned in the other thread, accusing the romanians of stealing transylvania is like accusing greeks of stealing greece from the turks.  you can't possibly expect more than half of the population to live completely ignored forever. that just doesn't happen.

there are indeed regions where there are more hungarians than romanians. basically harghita and covasna. those are two counties. out of about 15. sorry for hungarians, austrians and all others who support the hungarian cause. that's just not enough.

[ilyala]

i just read the missy and boris thread and the posts on that topic that are related to this topic and i would like to add a few remarks:

1. annabel, my grandmother is hungarian. 100%. she lives in romania and is very happy that way. while i do not argue that for hungarians it must not have been very pleasant, not all fair decisions are pleasant for everybody. in cases like these you have to do what pleases most people, because there is no sollution that would please everybody. romanians were more than hungarians, much more. they wanted to be part of romania, not of hungary. they got their wish.

2. the remark about romanians intelligence was really not needed. not everyone speaks perfect english like you do. that has nothing to do with intelligence, some people study french and german in school, not english. if i were to comment upon the intelligence of all the engfish and american people who don't speak any other language except english, i would probably be banned from every forum there is. there is no such thing as a nation of stupid people. every nation has smart and stupid people. i'm pretty sure proportions are simmilar, too. while i understand you feel strongly on the subject (and so do i, i am a romanian, my mother's parents are from transylvania, one of them hungarian and the other romanian... and i've heard both sides... and decided that although it might hurt a hungarian, the romanian side is more right than the hungarian one... i do not deny that my mostly romanian origin might cause some sort of subjectivity but you have to admit that i do have some reasonable arguments) but please refrain from insulting people who have done you no harm.

3. you might want to check out the arguments pro-romanian transylvania. you might wanna check contemporary sources that talk about the treatment romanians were subjected to while under hungarian rule. while i don't hate hungarians, i do believe the hungarian government was very unfair towards romanians and i believe that a lot of hard feelings and resentment could have been avoided if they would have been less oppressive. i don't expect to change your opinion. i'm just trying to open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the romanians might have a point too.

[frederika]

A lot of Hungarians were killed and persicuted by the Romanian government betwen 1965-1989 and still are trying hard to keep there culture alive but i agree there were a lot of Romanians living there. If Romania wanted more land they should have taken Moldova as that has no cultral and linguistic difference to Romania.

[ilyala]

it is not about wanting more land! it's about knowing that there's around 7-8 million romanians living in a foreign province being persecuted by its government. in a province in which they held majority, mind you! i agree that the communist government persecuted people of foreign origin (not only hungarians, also jews and  germans and gipsies) but you cannot hold the government of the 1920s and the monarchy responsible for that. the communists did a lot of bad things, and not only in romania. but that was 45 years. the romanians in transylvania were oppressed for hundreds of years not by one form of government but by all of them... it was national policy. while that does not excuse the 45 years of oppression of the hungarians in romania, that does make it look a bit less serious.

i am not trying to excuse the communist government. i am most definitely against almost everything it did in my country, that being just one of many things. i'm just trying to compare the work of one system to the work of many systems...

and i point out again: it's not about wanting land. you don't actually think that the romanian government sat and thought 'oh look, we could use a little bit more land let's take transylvania'... no romanian would have fought for a piece of bulgaria for example. we fought for transylvania because there were romanians there. more than any other population. just like we fought for basarabia and bucovina (at that time bucovina also had a lot of romanian population, now it's pretty much extinct due to another communist government)... it's not about wanting land, any land, it's about wanting the land where your brothers live. i'm sure you can understand the difference

[Linnea]

For all Pro-Hungarians: Don´t forget that
a. Through the lose of the Burgenland to Austria, many Hungarian noble families still had property after 1945 like the Esterhazys (one of the most famous noble families around ever), the Batthyánys etc. The Romanian nobles (I am not sure guys, does there exist nobles in Romania?) surely lost all their property.
b. Hungary is richer than Romania
I mean that is really not bad either!

[Linnea]

It is interesting that both Laura and ilya say that they have Hungarian roots, but are passionatly Pro-Romanian and very Anti-Hungarian. Are you sure guys about your family-background?

[TampaBay]

Caution & Warning: Ignorant American about to post a question

After WWII and the communist invasion/takeover did it not make all decesions by the 1920 Paris Peace Conference basically, null, void & moot.  Did not the soviets via puppet governments control everything?

Are not the majority of the Baltic nations moving toward a united Europe?

TampaBay

[Linnea]

Even if the Sovjets ruled over whole eastern Europe after 1945, the border of the counties stayed the same. That´s why the bad feelings between Hungary and Romania didn´t disappear.
Even if it is a bit of topic I just have to tell a joke I have heard some time ago by an Hungarian friend:
In the early 1960s, a Hungarian, now living abroad, visits Budapest. He wants to go to the old Déak-Street, but this street doesn´t exist anymore. A nice policeman explains to him that this steet is now the Stalin-Street. Now he wants to go to the old Andrássy-Place, but also this place doesn´t exist anymore either. It´s now the Lenin-Place. A bit confused, he walks down to the Danube. A policemen walking by ask what he´s doing. Our dear Hungarian friend responses: "Oh, I just wanted to look at the Wolga!"

[ilyala]

It is interesting that both Laura and ilya say that they have Hungarian roots, but are passionatly Pro-Romanian and very Anti-Hungarian. Are you sure guys about your family-background?

i don't have hungarian roots. i have a hungarian grandmother. that's totally different. my hungarian grandmother married a romanian patriot and became quite a patriot herself. while she does not forget she is hungarian she is one of the hungarians from transylvania that accept the romanian nationality. i've only once passed through hungary. i know a couple of my hungarian relatives but tehy are people that i don't ever talk to unless we happen to be in the same place. so i wouldn't say i have hungarian roots. but because i spent two years in transylvania in a place that had a strong hungarian community, i couldn't help notice the tensions. and i did hear both sides of the story. and i do understand what it must be like to suddenly change governments, nationalities or maybe even get kicked out of your home. but while i wish the transition had been smoother, i can't help thinking that it needed to be done anyway