Author Topic: Plantagenet Women  (Read 8755 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Plantagenet Women
« on: November 22, 2005, 11:14:00 AM »
Here's a thread to discuss the many interesting women who were either born into or married into the Plantagenet dynasty, exluding of course queens, who have their own thread.

So have free reign on characters like Katherine Swynford, Cecily Neville, Margaret Pole, Margaret of York (Duchess of Burgundy) and any others who fall into this category! Enjoy!
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ilyala

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2005, 03:22:48 PM »
well, i would like to start with the story of alys of capet. she was the daughter of louis vii of france with, i believe, his second wife (after eleanor of aquitaine). she was brought to england to marry richard the lionheart by his father, henry 2nd. the engagement was long and in the end richard cancelled it when he became king because he claimed she had slept with his father and even gave birth to a child of his father. that thing would mean that richard's marriage would pretty much qualify as incest, for religious reasons.

does anyone know more about her? was she really henry's mistress? or was that just a reason to cancel the marriage because richard, apparently, really wanted to marry berengaria of castille?

while she does not qualify for 'married to a plantagenet', she was engaged to one :P

bell_the_cat

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2005, 03:30:51 PM »
Quote
well, i would like to start with the story of alys of capet. she was the daughter of louis vii of france with, i believe, his second wife (after eleanor of aquitaine). she was brought to england to marry richard the lionheart by his father, henry 2nd. the engagement was long and in the end richard cancelled it when he became king because he claimed she had slept with his father and even gave birth to a child of his father. that thing would mean that richard's marriage would pretty much qualify as incest, for religious reasons.

does anyone know more about her? was she really henry's mistress? or was that just a reason to cancel the marriage because richard, apparently, really wanted to marry berengaria of castille?

while she does not qualify for 'married to a plantagenet', she was engaged to one :P


and slept with one!

ilyala

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2005, 03:35:34 PM »
that's not a proven fact. maybe richard really didn't like her or something :P

bell_the_cat

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2005, 03:38:05 PM »
Quote
that's not a proven fact. maybe richard really didn't like her or something :P


Well of course he didn't like her....however Henry did. ;)

bell_the_cat

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2005, 03:55:43 PM »
She has been called a lot of things... Adelaide, Adela Alys or Alix, noone seems quite sure. She was born in 1160 to Constance of Castile the second wife of Louis VII, who died giving birth.

Alix was engaged to Richard as early as 1171, but it seems she started an affair with Henry and may have had a child by him. She was still engaged to Richard when he ascended the throne twenty years later, but he then sent her home due to her "bad name". Her brother Philippe Augustus (possible boyfriend of Richard!) wanted to marry her to John, but he wasn't interested in his father's cast-offs either!

Alix was eventually married in 1195 (very late) to Guillaume II Talvas (1178-1221), comte de Ponthieu.

She had three children with him:

1) Jean II de Ponthieu, died young
2) Marie de Ponthieu (? - 1250 ou 1251), who married Simon de Dammartin comte d'Aumale et de Dammartin (? - 1239), and inherited  Ponthieu. She married secondly  Mathieu de Montmorency (? - 1250).
3) Isabelle de Ponthieu, abbesse d'Épagne.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

ilyala

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2005, 01:05:36 AM »
but does really an unmarried princess of royal birth sleep with someone before marriage, someone she's not even supposed to marry? i would have believed it had she cheated on richard after the marriage... but weren't the princesses especially educated to keep their good name? being a virgin the first time she married was a very important thing...

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2005, 02:43:35 PM »
Does anyone else think that Henry VIII's cold execution of Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury, was perhaps the most barbaric act of his reign?

Margaret, the daughter of George, Duke of Clarence and Isabel Neville, was almost 70 at the time, renowned for her piety and morality. A disgusting act, especially given Henry's previous affection and regard for her.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2005, 03:06:13 PM »
Absolutely disgusting way to treat any human being. What a particularly horrific episode. By the by, is it true that Katherine Howard sent warm blankets and clothing to Margaret whilst she was in the Tower?
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2005, 03:07:50 PM »
I don't know about that.

Apparently, when Margaret was told she was to die, she took the news calmly, and replied that it was strange, since she didn't know what she had done.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2005, 03:11:29 PM »
But what exactly had she done except be born a Plantagenet ???
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2005, 03:20:20 PM »
God only knows. Something to do with a rebellion by one of her sons, or a suspicion of a rebellion?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2005, 03:37:21 PM »
Well, I have had a quick look and when officials "raided "her property, they found a heraldic device, entwining pansies  (symbol of the Poles),with marigolds (a symbol used by Mary). On the back were found the 5 wounds of Christ which then supposedly, connected her with The Pilgrimage of Grace. What with that and her son Reginald disagreeing with Henry's religious thesis....well that was that.
Interestingly, she was beatified in 1886 by Pope Leo VIII
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bell_the_cat

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2005, 03:21:00 AM »
Quote
I don't know about that.

Apparently, when Margaret was told she was to die, she took the news calmly, and replied that it was strange, since she didn't know what she had done.


She wasn't quite as calm later on - the axeman had to chase her round the block! I'd have been like that too, I have to admit. :-/

She was condemned to death two years earlier in 1539, in connection with a supposed plot of her sons Lord Montagu and Geoffrey Pole. I'll have to look up whether this really was a plot or whether Henry made this up too. The evidence for her complicity which was produced at her trial, besides being mother of the accused seems rather paltry. It was these items dicovered when her home was searched.

Montagu was executed straight away but Margaret was kept in the Tower for the time being (so Henry must have felt a bit bad about it). When Cromwell fell (August 1540) she must have felt hopeful that she was going to be released, especially after the king's marriage to the niece of the Duke of Norfolk indicated that the Catholic party was in favour again.

Does anyone know if the blankets were intended by Katherine Howard as a sign that Margaret was in favour again? I can't believe that she would have done such a thing without asking Henry first. But then she wasn't the brightest button, she might have been acting on behalf of her uncle.

I've often wondered whether Margaret's fate was intended as a warning to Katherine. She certainly got caught up (as Katherine did shortly afterward) in the political machinations of that year. It was suddenly announced that she would be executed within 24 hours, which must have been a surprise as she had been expecting to be released.

Shakespeare trivia: Margaret appears in the play Richard III (as a little girl).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Plantagenet Women
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2005, 05:53:08 AM »
On a side note, Margaret was a great friend to Katherine of Aragon, and for a time head of Princess Mary's household. How Henry VIII could have implicated her in treason aged 68 or so is unfathomable. Surely if treason was what she intended she would have struck earlier on?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."