Communist people we like

[Tsarfan]

Western civilization with its advancements over centuries in the sciences, technology, inventions, innovation and social organization has given the world all the best that has been thought or taught.

This line illustrates something of your lack of perspective in analyzing history -- not so much because of the accomplishments you list, but because of the timeline and causations you perceive.

If one compared western Europe to China in 1400, China would have won on every single one of the comparison points you list.  Within a century, though, the west began -- slowly at first -- to pull away on science and technology.  But the reasons the west began to pull ahead at that point were not a function of the larger characteristics of those societies, but a function of a rather limited number of individuals on each side.  China was thrown into a stall by the emergence of an emperor who made an ill-conceived decision to pull China back from her growing external involvements.  And the people in the west who were taking their first tentative steps toward modern experimental science were confronted by massive resistance from society at large, mostly manifested in the Church's reaction to scientific inquiry.  But for the presence or absence of a relatively few number of individuals on each side, things could have gone the other way.

On the social organization front, the west's emergence came much later and remained fraught with major exceptions until very recent times.  The French did not begin to taste "the dignity of human beings and equal justice under the law" until the 19th century.  Black Americans were held in legal slavery until 1865 and seldom had a real chance to vote until the Voting Rights Act of 1965.  Russians were held in serfdom until 1861.  Russian Jews were still living in Pales of Settlement in 1917 under severely curtailed rights.  The British set up the world's first concentration camps during the Boer War.  Women did not have the right to vote even in the advanced democracies until the 20th century.  There was a holocaust in central Europe in the 1930's and 1940's.  Russians in the mid-20th century were packed by the millions into the gulag or were disappearing into the basements of the Lybuanka.  The Balkans saw the return of genocide in the 1980's.  And Russia in the Putin era is proof that the tides of personal freedom can ebb as well as flow.

One has to remember that we see only the history that has already unfolded, not the history that is yet to come.  There is a real possibility that we are in the early stages of seeing the wand of technological advance pass from the west to the east.  Some of the early signs are the stem cell debate in the U.S., the steady reduction of the amount of GNP earmarked for pure science research, the reduction of focus on space exploration.  More than half the people my company hires have undergraduate or graduate degrees in information technology, math, or statistics.  And one of the biggest problems we now confront is U.S. immigration policy.  We recruit only from the top-tier universities, and in the technology disciplines we find the programs increasingly populated by non-U.S. nationals -- sometimes as high as 70%.  However, the U.S. quota for the H-1B visas these people need to take jobs with us is usually filled by April -- a couple of months before graduation.  People of western extraction -- at least proportionately speaking -- are abandoning the technology disciplines in droves, and our immigration policy forces many of the students who seek out these disciplines to take their skills back to their home countries.

To students looking at human history a thousand years from now, it is not inconceivable that they will see a history of science that looks somewhat less western-centric -- with the west grabbing an early lead that it relinquished, slowly at first, and then at an accelerating pace.  You insist on pointing to the Greeks as proof that science had its origins exclusively in the west.  But what the Greeks more incontestably prove is that the person who starts the race strongest is not necessarily the one who wins it.  (I cannot remember the last time we hired a Greek student into our company.)  The entire race has to be well-run, not just the dash out of the blocks.

I am hugely grateful to have been born and to live in a western society that accords me more freedom and material comfort than anywhere else in the world.  But I have studied enough history to know that huge differences in outcome often originate from very tiny kernels of differences.  The west had one salient difference that provided the kernel for the explosive growth of its freedom and prosperity compared to the rest of the world -- a few English barons told their king his power was not absolute, and they made it stick.

[Damie]

In regards to China, I'm concerned to point out that first it was contaminated pet food, then poisoned toothapaste. Most recently, it was millions of health hazardous children's toys and baby bibs. In addition, defective tires from China which blew out causing several deaths in America alone and elsewhere in the West. The quality of health and safety in foods and merchandise for Americans has, after long years of consumer and legislative initiatives and action, been seriously compromised by greed, carelessness and incompetence. Well--unless you don't mind diethylene glycol (a product used in antifreeze) in your toothpaste--I guess it's no big whoop! Is this what we're to expect  henceforth from the marvelous globalist new world order you're suggesting is our inevitable fate?

Shrimp--anyone?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75695.php

[LisaDavidson]

A couple of points here:

1. I am concerned about how one poster has labeled this thread "a disgrace". This thread exists because of the policies of this Forum and my decision to allow it as Moderator. We are allowed to run this Forum as the management sees fit, and if you don't like this thread, don't post on it. If you have a complaint about how the Forum is run, kindly contact the FA or GA.

2. I am concerned about how far off topic this discussion is. The topic is "Communist People We Like". I respectfully request a return to topic.

[Tsarfan]

Lisa, I will make this my last post on this thread.  However, since the thread was defunct for almost two months before this debate broke out and since each recent post has drawn dozens of views without any objections being raised, I want to make one last riposte.

In regards to China, I'm concerned to point out that first it was contaminated pet food, then poisoned toothapaste. Most recently, it was millions of health hazardous children's toys and baby bibs. In addition, defective tires from China which blew out causing several deaths in America alone and elsewhere in the West. The quality of health and safety in foods and merchandise for Americans has, after long years of consumer and legislative initiatives and action, been seriously compromised by greed, carelessness and incompetence. Well--unless you don't mind diethylene glycol (a product used in antifreeze) in your toothpaste--I guess it's no big whoop! Is this what we're to expect  henceforth from the marvelous globalist new world order you're suggesting is our inevitable fate?

You should perhaps broaden your survey of what's going on in the world beyond the latest news stories on TV.

The Large Hadron Collider is about to open for business on the border of France of Switzerland.  It is the largest and most complex machine ever built (17 miles in diameter) and is designed to search for the Higgs boson and its associated field, the theoretical entity that gives matter its mass and that can answer one of the most fundamental questions in physics.  And it is being built by a consortium of countries across the globe, with heavy participation from Asia.  The U.S. tried to start a similar project about the same time in Texas but abandoned the project after 13 miles of tunnel had been dug and $2 billion had been spent.  The next round of breakthroughs in fundamental physics will carry a global label, not a western one.

Toyota recently moved into the number one position in U.S. auto sales, after already having won the title elsewhere.  And Japanese car brands in general are viewed as the current world standard for quality in design and manufacture, with the Korean Hyundai brand moving up fast.

The compact disc and many of its associated technologies were invented by a joint effort between Sony of Japan and Phillips of Europe.

Asia and Europe are pressing ahead with stem cell research while the U.S. has a religious debate reminiscent of the reaction of the Catholic Church in the Renaissance to attempts to establish a heliocentric view of the universe.  (It was only in the 20th century that the Chuch officially acknowledged the work of Copernicus and Galileo as accurate.)

I could go on, with lists of dozens of technologies which are expanding their horizons faster in Asia than elsewhere.  I could show you statistics on the national origins of students in graduate programs in science and technology at the premier universities in the U.S. and Europe.  But I don't think there's any point . . . not with lead-painted toys and tainted toothpaste on the shelves of Wal-Mart answering all your questions for you.

[LisaDavidson]

Tsarfan - you are welcome to take this discussion to another part of the Forum. I apologize for not being able to visit every day. I rarely get sick, but was put on bed rest recently due to having too many illnesses at the same time. Otherwise, I would have spoken up earlier.

[Damie]

A couple of points here:

1. I am concerned about how one poster has labeled this thread "a disgrace". This thread exists because of the policies of this Forum and my decision to allow it as Moderator. We are allowed to run this Forum as the management sees fit, and if you don't like this thread, don't post on it. If you have a complaint about how the Forum is run, kindly contact the FA or GA.

2. I am concerned about how far off topic this discussion is. The topic is "Communist People We Like". I respectfully request a return to topic.

Lisa: I was the one who labeled the topic of this thread a "disgrace," but I never once intended to suggest that it should be censored, much less to question the judgement of the moderator. I only expressed my opinion on the topic, but would not question the policies of this forum, especially being a newbie. Please accept my apology if my intentions were misunderstood. This is the finest managed discussion board I've ever come across, and I mean that sincerely. I'm glad you're feeling better. And in the future, I'll make sure to stay on topic, because it was my fault this thread got off topic. We've had a lively debate here though and I think we all managed to keep things from getting too ugly. Testy, maybe, but clean and bloodless. lol

All my best,

Damie

[Damie]

Tsarfan: Thanks for your response--even though you're beginning to patronize me. I want to respect Lisa's wishes that we keep this thread on topic. If you want to move it to another thread, as she suggested, that's fine. I'll be glad to continue. We could devote a whole new thread to the topic of declining academic standards and performance in U.S. public schools and the reasons for it, and other such decline in the West. Be that as it may, as much as you're trying to play the race card on me, I happen to know and respect some extremely bright and decent students from Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. I've only stated that Western civilization has given the world all the best that has been taught or thought. You might want to ask then, why is it then--if you believe this to be untrue and racist to assert--that all those statistics you'd like to draw like a pistol on me in a gunfight regarding the national origins of students in graduate programs in science and technology are attending the finest universities in the U.S. and Europe and not in their own homelands? But that's for another time and thread.

Communists I like. Dead Reds.

Regards,

Damie

[Georgi Zhukov]

However I don't like Communism, being objectives we can't deny many advances Russia had during communist rule, although the massacres and genocides, but they were episodes that unfortunately, also took place during tsarist rule, since the tartars, or with Ivan IV, for example, and the infamous pogroms against Jews.

Russia during Soviet Period became a very powerful empire, much more than in tsarist times, it had the half of the world under it's control, went to the space and developed high technology in heavy industry and in aeronautics, Russian universities had an excellent level, and from the illiteracy from tsarist times they developed a very well educated people, almost the 100% of people can read and write thanks to great pedagogues as Makarenko, however, they used education for indoctrination of Marxism.

Also communist elite only continued with tsarism with a red paint: the photos of Lenin and his wife remember a lot Nicholas and Alexandra, Stalin in his dacha with is tormented family seemed to try to give the same image of Nicholas, Alix, OTMA and Alexei, General Secretaries of the Party had a real court, the cult of personality, are all many items similar to tsarism, and also the Party "Nomenklatura" was a new kind of nobility.

My favourite Russian communist is Marshall Zhukov, hero of the Soviet Union and the man who defeated Hitler in the eastern front as Kutuzov did in 1812 with Napoleon, a man who loved a lot Russia even though he called it "Soviet Union" that`s why I chose that nick

[Alixz]

I know that this topic hasn't been posted to for a long time, however, after extensive editing to make it "safe" for those who come here to study, I have decided to lock it.

It never stayed on track and became a source of contention and aggravation while it was active.

Alixz 05/16/2009