Author Topic: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?  (Read 48256 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tania+

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1206
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2006, 12:23:54 PM »
Absolutely ! Thank you Griffh, thank you !!!

Tatiana+
TatianaA


Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2006, 02:57:31 PM »
Since this thread is about our families who were affected by Lenin and Stalin who seems to have creeped into the discussion,  I hope to bring you various articles, stories, letters which give you real stories about real people [my family, friends, people I know, people who have contacted me and others].

Here is a story written by Leo Okes, who was a German-Russian, who had been deported to a Laber Camp and how he spent Christmas:

http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/grhc/history_culture/history/christmas.html

If you are not familiar with the NDSU  [North Dakota State University] Collection,  it is a treasure box filled with historical information about the German-Russians,  people who's ancestors emigrated into Russsia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 03:01:58 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline griffh

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2006, 04:02:12 PM »
Oh AGRBear thank you, thank you, thank you. 

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #108 on: September 04, 2006, 04:02:47 PM »
Correction:  Name should have been Leo Oks.
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Zvezda

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2006, 03:14:10 PM »
Quote
For example Stalin attempted to wipe out not only entire classes (the kulaks)

This is a distortion. The kulaks were eliminated as a class but former kulaks were not physically exterminated. They were merely relocated to underdeveloped parts of the country like the Urals where they would be concentrated in other parts of the economy.

Quote
but also entire cultures (the Ukrainians, the Volga Germans, the Chechens, the Crimean Tartars, just to name a handful)

That is rubbish. Concerning the Ukraine, this is just simply not true. During Stalin, even Russian children were instructed in the "Ukrainian" language in the schools of the Ukrainian SSR. Indeed, the "Ukrainian" identity was essentially created by the Bolsheviks. There had previously never been a political entity called "Ukraine" before. Other countries created by the Bolsheviks include Belorussia, Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan,and Kyrgyzstan.

Concerning the deported groups, substantial evidence shows that 20,000 Crimean Tatars collaborated with the German invaders which is a conspicuous manifestation of treason. Subtracting women,children, and elderly ineligible for combat, perhaps one-third of all Crimean males betrayed the USSR. Concerning the Chechens, while I don't think they directly collaborated with the Germans, their disproportionate draft-doding, desertion, and anti-Soviet insurgency was a serious obstruction for the defense of the country and directly assisted the Germans. Concerning the Volga Germans, it was found that their social status in Central Asia was far superior to those of the Turkic natives. Your claim that there was an attempt to wipe out thei culture is unfounded as they had German-language publications and German-language schools.

Quote
Are you forgetting the Great Famine in the Ukraine and parts of the Caucasus?

This famine resulted due to drought, excessive rain, rust, smut, and a short supply of horses. This is extensively documented by scholars Mark Tauger, Stephen Wheatcroft, and Robert Davies. Archival documents show that the Soviet government fed more than 60 million people during the famine through the rationing system. More than 20 or so Politbureau and Sovnarkom decrees allocated foods to famine-stricken parts of the country. The diastrous harvests alone resulted in the famine. Grain collections played no role contrary to propaganda dessiminated by the US Congress in the late 1980s.

Quote
The mass deportations of entire nations of people to Siberia?

More like Central Asia. Tatars, Meshkhetian Turks, Kalmyks, Karachais, Balkars belong in Central Asia where they originated from. Whereas only 180,000 Krym Tatars had been transferred to Central Asia, there are more than 400,000 of them today meaning that there was a population explosion.

Regarding Lenin, he has to have been the best leading figure Russia has ever had. The Russian people owe so much of their achivements to Lenin's aims of liberation and progress.

Some 66.7 percent of those questioned by the ROMIR-Gallup research center said they believed Lenin had played a positive role in Russian history, with only 22.1 percent demurring.

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200104/23/eng20010423_68355.html

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2006, 03:42:08 PM »

This is a distortion. The kulaks were eliminated as a class but former kulaks were not physically exterminated. They were merely relocated to underdeveloped parts of the country like the Urals where they would be concentrated in other parts of the economy.


Did you work for Tass  at some point?

The Kulaks were "merely" relocated to be concentrated in other parts of the economy?  Merely?!?

Only in a society as cynically malevolent as soviet society, where the plain meaning of language was freely distorted for the Party's propagandastic purposes, could such an absurd statement be uttered by someone who expected to be taken seriously.

When being forcibly transported away from your home to be "concentrated" by state order in other parts of the economy is viewed as a really good deal -- which I guess it is when the proffered alternative is extermination -- we're talking about a brutal police state here.  Nothing more and nothing less.

Whoever you are, Zvezda, drop the pretense that you are some kind of scholar trying to set the record straight on a noble political order.  You are, in fact, a shill for one of the most vicious regimes ever imposed upon a nation.

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2006, 04:10:07 PM »
That is rubbish. Concerning the Ukraine, this is just simply not true. During Stalin, even Russian children were instructed in the "Ukrainian" language in the schools of the Ukrainian SSR. Indeed, the "Ukrainian" identity was essentially created by the Bolsheviks. There had previously never been a political entity called "Ukraine" before. Other countries created by the Bolsheviks include Belorussia, Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan,and Kyrgyzstan.

Your observations about the Ukrainian language are very revealing, as is your boast that the Bolsheviks "created" Ukrainian, Belorussian, Kazakh, Uzbek, Turkmen and Kyrgyz nationalism. (In other words you are asking us to give the great Russian people credit for bringing enlightenment to the poor benighted peoples they conquered! How touching!) But just to take the Ukrainian language as an example, I recently read a review of the book "Ukrains'ka mova u XX storichchi: istoriia lingvotsydu. Dokumenty i materialy" (Kiev: Vidavnychyi dim "Kyevo-Mogylians'ka akademiia," 2005). It tells a very different story from the one you relate. As the reviewer, Assya Humesky of the University of Michigan, notes, in 1931 Stalin announced to the Sixteenth Congress of the Communist Party that henceforth "the building of national cultures can be abandoned" and replaced by "the merging together of all nations into one international culture based on one national culture, particularly that of the Russian people [my emphasis]."  Again according to this reviewer, the second half of the book "contains documents and materials of the 1930s - a series of the resolutions of the People's Commissar of Education and a number of articles by Ukrainian linguists, physicists, and mathematicians who toed the party line and came out against 'nationalist' tendencies on the 'linguistic front.' Such militaristic terminology frequently appears in those writings and clearly indicates that a veritable war was being waged against the Ukrainian language, a true 'linguocide.' Here, for example, are some of the titles of those articles: 'To uproot, destroy the nationalist roots on the linguistic front,' 'Nationalist danger on the linguistic front,' 'To finish off the enemy,' 'Liquidate the nationalist sabotage in Soviet physics terminology,'" etc., etc. (Humesky, "Slavic and East European Journal," vol. 50, no. 2, p. 382).

Interesting, no?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 04:31:56 PM by Elisabeth »
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline Tania+

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1206
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2006, 06:09:01 PM »
'To uproot, destroy the nationalist roots on the linguistic front,' 'Nationalist danger on the linguistic front,' 'To finish off the enemy,' 'Liquidate the nationalist sabotage in Soviet physics terminology'"

This is exactly what the Soviets did to all nations, and in confronting the very citizens of these nations, they entered. Their aim was to make sure that their roots were destroyed, their language denied, their culture as well, and everyone became a controlled soviet citizen !.

Thank goodness you Elizabeth and Tsarfan are fighting back and making sure that the history of what the Soviets did is not glossed over and left as this person wants all to believe. Thank you !

Tatiana+
TatianaA


Offline Zvezda

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2006, 07:05:46 PM »
The soviets extensively promoted the language and culture of minority groups. In some areas like the Caucasus the people do not speak a lick of Russian. In the early decades, every nationality had its own territorial unit including even the Germans, Poles, Jews,Finns, Koreans. Although they to a certain extent were toned down, the same did not apply to the other 100 or so Soviet nationalities. Thousands of periodicals and newspapers were published in the USSR in over 100 languages. The USSR government was by the most tolerant and accomodating of national minorities. In America, by contrast, policies of genocidal assimilation have resulted in people of German, Italian,Polish, etc descent in being oblivious to their roots.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 07:09:05 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2006, 07:12:03 PM »
The soviets extensively promoted the language and culture of minority groups.

So we'll just ignore all those Soviet documents attesting to the contrary, shall we?
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline Zvezda

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2006, 09:22:10 PM »
Well, it is apparent that those purported suggestions were not applied. As has been seen, minorities in the USSR were accomodated by periodicals and communication broadcasts in their native tongue. For example if you take a look at the Sovet currency, the languages of all 15 SSRs are included.

1939 entry of Collier's Yearbook on Ukraine:

The Little Russian language, much restricted by the Tsars, is the medium of a thriving culture. There are 117 colleges and universities, 1,830 newspapers and 53 state theatres using the Little Russian language. Culturally Ukraina seems the most advanced of all the Soviet Republics.

Belorussia:
Formerly forbidden to print their own language, White Russians now have about a million children in school, 200 newspapers, 14 theaters, 25 institutions of higher learning and use their own language.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 09:26:49 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2006, 12:01:07 PM »
Well, it is apparent that those purported suggestions were not applied. As has been seen, minorities in the USSR were accomodated by periodicals and communication broadcasts in their native tongue. For example if you take a look at the Sovet currency, the languages of all 15 SSRs are included.

1939 entry of Collier's Yearbook on Ukraine:

The Little Russian language, much restricted by the Tsars, is the medium of a thriving culture. There are 117 colleges and universities, 1,830 newspapers and 53 state theatres using the Little Russian language. Culturally Ukraina seems the most advanced of all the Soviet Republics.

Belorussia:
Formerly forbidden to print their own language, White Russians now have about a million children in school, 200 newspapers, 14 theaters, 25 institutions of higher learning and use their own language.

You are using Soviet statistics, allegedly compiled in 1939 - in other words, statistics supplied by Stalin's own government - to prove your point. You've just proved mine instead.
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline Zvezda

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2006, 12:24:30 PM »
That is an absurd argument connoting that there soviet statistics regarding the languages spoken in its country were just completely fabricated. Unless you can put forth evidence to the contrary, your ridiculuous claims can be dismissed. Are you then saying that all non-Russian minorities in the USSR were completely forbidden to speak their native language and practice their culture? If that's what you're insinuating, it simply was not the case as the facts show.

Quote
"the building of national cultures can be abandoned" and replaced by "the merging together of all nations into one international culture based on one national culture, particularly that of the Russian people [my emphasis]."


1.These are selective quotations. They are worthless.
2. They lack context. It does not set forth abolition of territorial units. It does not call for prohibiting non-Russian languages.
3.It is obvious that what is described above was not implemented. Ask yourself why the majority of Ukrainians today speak their own dialect.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 12:28:24 PM by Zvezda »

Offline Elisabeth

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2131
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2006, 08:24:45 AM »
That is an absurd argument connoting that there soviet statistics regarding the languages spoken in its country were just completely fabricated. Unless you can put forth evidence to the contrary, your ridiculuous claims can be dismissed. Are you then saying that all non-Russian minorities in the USSR were completely forbidden to speak their native language and practice their culture? If that's what you're insinuating, it simply was not the case as the facts show.

Quote
"the building of national cultures can be abandoned" and replaced by "the merging together of all nations into one international culture based on one national culture, particularly that of the Russian people [my emphasis]."


1.These are selective quotations. They are worthless.
2. They lack context. It does not set forth abolition of territorial units. It does not call for prohibiting non-Russian languages.
3.It is obvious that what is described above was not implemented. Ask yourself why the majority of Ukrainians today speak their own dialect.

Zvezda, you are twisting my words. I did not say that "all non-Russian minorities in the USSR were completely forbidden to speak their native language and practice their culture." As far as I know, non-Russian Soviet citizens were permitted to speak their native languages in their own home. But at various periods of Soviet history, they were discouraged from doing so in school, where Russian language courses were a requirement, not an elective.

Furthermore, what I gave were examples of how Ukrainian intellectuals were ordered not to speak or write in pure Ukrainian, but to adopt Russianisms to mitigate the uniquely national characteristics of their own native tongue. Certainly from the documents I cited - written by Ukrainian scholars themselves, who were toeing the Communist party line - it's perfectly clear that at the very least Stalin's policy of discouraging "nationalism" in language had a severe impact on scholarly research and publications in the Ukraine.  And of course, if you are trying to undermine the culture of an entire people, one of the best ways to go about this is to muzzle their intellectual elite.
... I love my poor earth
because I have seen no other

-- Osip Mandelshtam

Offline Tania+

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1206
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: How Has Lenin Affected You Or Your Families Life ?
« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2006, 11:09:07 AM »
Elizabeth,

You and others by now must be able to see how transparant this person is, really ! In your first sentence below, you have already captured what it is that this person does repeatedly, as did the old 'fossils of the soviet government. They twisted words, made them worthless to the population (wherever they were in any country) so that they always seemed to be in leadership. But you, and every free person in the world knows now as most of Russia does today, that the old soviet goverment never worked then, and is thank goodness, totally defunct, kaput, finished today !   :D

Zvezda, can slip and slid all she wants, but the major facts speak for themselves. And for the record my dear friends, she is for the most part a minority in thought, certainly in bringing false facts to light.

For the most part, it is pure hilarity to read what she is quoting and using to justify her arguments. No real scholar, or historian will ever, and could ever swallow such garbage. Thank goodness the party line is over, and all these peoples, countries are once again free to govern themselves and follow the wishes of their citizens. Russians are getting the hang of things as well, and soon most of those who think as Zvezda will become ghosts of the past.

Keep up the good fight my friends, the good fight !

Tatiana+
TatianaA