King John

[Prince_Lieven]

What is your opinion of King John as a ruler and a person? There is definite evidence that he could be ruthless - the murder of his nephew Arthur and incarceration of his niece Eleanor come to mind - and he has often been written off as a weak, ineffectual king. But perhaps he was not as bad as is sometimes thought. Any opinions on him?

[bell_the_cat]

Here's some Yuletide thoughts from A.A. Milne to start us off:

King John was not a good man
—He had his little ways.
And sometimes no one spoke to him
For days and days and days.
And men who came across him,
When walking in the town,
Gave him a supercilious stare,
Or passed with noses in the air —
And bad King John stood dumbly there,
Blushing beneath his crown.

King John was not a good man,
And no good friends had he.
He stayed in every afternoon ...
But no one came to tea.
And, round about December,
The cards upon his shelf
Which wished him lots of Christmas cheer,
And fortune in the coming year,
Where never from his near and dear,
But only from himself.  

[Prince_Lieven]

Thanks for the rhyme Bell, not sure how accurate it is though.  

Just a quick trivia question perhaps someone can answer - what happened to John's first wife, Isabel of Gloucester, after he divorced her?

[Kimberly]

They were divorced on grounds of consanguinity and John ensured that she stayed single so he could keep his hands on her vast estates. About 15 years later, she married again but her 2nd husband- Geoffrey de Mandeville- died 2 years later. She married for a third time- Hubert de Burgh but she died suddenly,only 1 month into this marriage and is buried in Canterbury Cathedral.

[Kimberly]

John had at least 12 illigitimate children. His daughter Joan married Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of Wales.

[Prince_Lieven]

John had at least 12 illigitimate children. His daughter Joan married Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of Wales.

As told in 'Child of the Phoenix'.  

Re Isabel of Gloucester - was she a relation of Robert of Gloucester, Henry I's bastard?

[Kimberly]

Yep, he was her grandpa

[bell_the_cat]

Hubert de Burgh married again after Awise/Isabella's death. This time it was to the daughter of King William of Scotland, Margaret.

Their daughter Megotta was declared heir by Alexander II in the 1230s, but by his death (1249), Megotta's line had died out, so they had to go back a generation to find heirs among the descendants of William's younger brother, David, Earl of Huntingdon.

[PssMarieAmelie]

Was King John the one who created the Magna Carta?  

[Kimberly]

The Magna Carta was a kind of Bill or Rights, it gave the church its independence,prevented arbitrary taxes and made it impossible to bo punished without trial. John was forced to sign this document at Runnymede in 1215. John was furious and within weeks he got the pope to annul the charter.

[PssMarieAmelie]

He was not one happy chap, was he...thanks for the info, by the way...

[Kimberly]

It is undeniable that John was ruthless but maybe he got quite a bit of bad press. He built up England's navy andsea defences, he was an able administrator and tried to ensure a healthy economy.

[ilyala]

Re Isabel of Gloucester - was she a relation of Robert of Gloucester, Henry I's bastard?

her father was a cousin of henry 2nd's, the son of robert of gloucester. in his will he stated that he would leave all his lands to his family, the crown, if john, at that time just the youngest child of king henry (with not much perspective to inherit the throne, having two older brothers) would marry his daughter. john was engaged to her but he put off the wedding, and i believe it was never actually consummated.

as for my opinion of king john... he was indeed ruthless, but that included being a somewhat good administrator. but he was faced with two many problems at a time and couldn't handle all of them. i doubt there are many people who could have done better. i suppose he could have been less impulsive into making so many enemies....

he was indeed the king under whom the magna charta was conceived. it was done as a way to stop abuses, but the truth is that magna charta was protective only for the nobles. that later, (in the english revolution times) it was interpreted as the act of liberties for all english people, it's true... but at the time it was just a way for the nobles to control their king. the act was completely ignored in the tudor times, for example.

[Prince_Lieven]

Thanks guys.  

John has been censured for signing the Charter, but most historians now think that he only did so to buy time, and would have revoked it as soon as he was stronger - but he died a year later (after losing the crown jewels in the Wash!)

[lady]

I read in a website that Matilda Fitzwalter, the your girl that denied to have an affair with John, became the maid Marian in the Robin Hood tales. It was said that the true Matilda was poisoned by order of the King and that she died after eating an egg.