Empress Alexandra and Maria Feodorovna

[NAAOTMA]

I think Tsaria brings up a fascinating point: how alike Mathilda (as she was called in Russia) and Nicholas' mother were. This struck me when I read IMPERIAL DANCER.

That book also made me realize that going to the ballet for Alexandra was far more than just showing up in the Imperial Box for an enjoyable evening at the theater. It was venturing into Mathilda's turf with all its past history between Nicholas and MK as well as the ongoing support MK received from other members of the Imperial Family.

[Forum Admin]

NAAOTMA

While an interesting point, this thread is about AF and MF, please take Mathilde and AF to the appropriate thread.

Thanks

[NAAOTMA]

FA, thank you and I will do as you suggest.

The usual view is that the last Tsar was torn between his mother and his wife. But some ways he was torn between his mother and his wife and MK (even after his romantic relationship with the ballerina was long finished) according to the book IMPERIAL DANCER.
Just thought that author Hall's take on this added an additional dimension to the AF-MF relationship. Perhaps MK would have been one area where MF and AF would have found common ground---or rather a common adversary--if they had been on better terms. This of course is a mere speculation on my part and nothing more. 

[NAAOTMA]

I was fortunate enough to have a supportive mother-in-law who made entry into my husband's family much easier than it would have been if she had been lukewarm toward me, or passive agressive or just plain difficult. Her example was the model I followed in terms of my own daughter-in-law, who is quite different in many ways from myself.

As the senior person in the relationship, it was MF's job to do everything in her power to ensure Alexandra's success as Nicholas's wife. As Dowager Empress, it was MF's job to support and ensure the success of the dynasty. Part of that would have been supporting her son's new wife. MF chose not to do that.

Another example of her less than appropriate actions is that she tried to get her sister Alexandra of England to keep the jewels that by custom were to be passed to Mary as the spouse of the reigning monarch when Edward the 7th died. Forwhatever reason, Alexandra did not follow her sister's "advice" and Queen Mary was spared the situation that Alexandra was put through. This example has been cited many times, but it is an important one as to how MF's mind worked and what her personal priorities were.  Her advice to her sister was mean spirited and petty and could only cause embarassment for Queen Mary and hard feelings all around. 

[Schvibzik]

You are very fortunate to have had a mother in law that was actually humane...hehe

My mother in law was...50/50 she could be quite the devil when she chose to, but if anyone said a bad word about me, she would put them in their place.

I know from my self that I do not take well to criticism and if I was in Alexandra's shoes, I doubt I would be very social either.

I just think that maybe ( Before AN was born and AF first arrived in Russia) had it not been for MF’s influence, the court might have given AF a chance to some degree OR at least not be so antagonistic towards her

I can be quite the social butterfly, with people that I feel comfortable with, and people that I know won't judge me...but when put into a scenario where I do not really know the people or feel their disapproval or intimidation... I am extremely withdrawn to the point where the thought of being in that environment gives me anxiety…WHICH leads me to be perceived to be rude and snobbish.

Obviously not excusing AF’s behavior at times OR trying to psycho analyse, but although we have a lot of documents to go by and a lot of first hand accounts, we can never know AF on a personal level..her emotions, her needs etc

Once AN was born - most people did not even know about AN’s illness which had a HUGE influence on the IF’s lives and especially AF’s, therefore a mothers worry for her child can lead her to be aloof or disinterested in the normal “mundane” things..which can be perceived as her being cold and heartless

If you had an empire to run, but at the same time your son, your youngest born is in a bed writhing with pain..who are you going to be thinking about?... no contest, certainly not going to be thinking about organizing the next ball to entertain the masses

I am positive that, had they known AN’s condition or witnessed an episode, they would have looked upon AF in a more sympathetic light

I think it is despicable that MF knowing what her grandson was going through and what AF was going through still chose to withdraw her loving support.

I just cannot even fathom the amount of pressure AF had on her shoulders being an Empress in a country where the population more less despised you, that coupled with MF being on her back too AND Alexei’s illness?!

Geez you know..any normal person would end up quite literally either insane or develop some stress related terminal illness

[clockworkgirl21]

develop some stress related terminal illness

Which Alix was probably suffering from. 

[dmitri]

AF had many problems. Sadly she was not suited to an Empress. It is wrong to blame AF's problems on MF. She did try to assist the young woman, but was sadly rejected. It is all a tragic history.

[Helen]

It is wrong to blame AF's problems on MF.

You have a point there. One cannot put all of the blame on MF. However, it's equally wrong to keep MF 'out of range' and to suggest that MF was a helpful woman who was sadly rejected. MF caused some of AF's problems. She was an ambitious person who wanted to be in the spotlights herself. She regularly crossed Alix in performing her public duties properly and than made scenes afterwards when Alix had found a way around her hindrance. Now that's a fine way of 'assisting'!

[dmitri]

AF sadly never understood that the law of Russia made MF her superior. Nicholas II understood this and never made any attempt to change it. MF did try to assist AF but AF was too stubborn to accept assistance and learn from her experienced mother-in-law. Instead she went off and hid from her duties and slowly ceased performing many of them at all. It is interesting to note that the first 10 years of the reign of Nicholas II were amazingly secure due to MF and the Uncles advising Nicholas. Everything went quickly downhill when he turned to AF who sadly consulted Rasputin about more than any concerns over Alexis. It is interesting that basically the entire Romanov family had grave misgivings about AF. It is hard to imagine they were all wrong. AF was a very loving wife but a fairly poor Tsarina. She was extremely unpopular with the Russian people and much of this was of her own doing. She is no innocent although she was declared a passion bearer decades after her murder. 

[anna11]

I've got to disagree with your apparent opinion that the whole reason AF had a bad relationship with MF was because Alexandra was too stubborn to accept help. I don't think there's any denying that Marie was not as helpful to Alix as she could have been. Not really in what she did, but what she didn't do. She could have really helped Alexandra, put her shoulder down for Alix to lean on, but instead ignored her, and only regarded her as her sons silly young wife not the new empress of Russia. The crown jewels debacle would have only increased Alix's feeling that MF did not take her seriously, and would have made her feel rather put out.

But it is quite obvious that they had an at least civil relationsip, and it wasn't straight out 'war' like some people think.

[NAAOTMA]

Anna has made a good point.

As far as Alix being unpopular with the Russian people in the early years of her marriage, it would fairer, and less sweeping. to say she was unpopoular with the circles of high Petersburg society. And MF was the leader of those circles and had been for many years.

As far as MF outranking AF, that was not true in terms of who was the correct person to be wearing the Imperial jewels that by precendent and tradition were supposed to be worn by the wife of the reigning Tsar. Instead of handing them over, MF hung on to them and only turned them over after as one writer states, it had become a "scandal" in the circles of high Petersburg society.

Nicholas and Alexandra treated MF with tact and understanding in their choosing the side of the AP to live in that traditionally housed courtiers. That is the side closest to the road and with the least attractive views. In part at least this choice of locating their living space on the side they did was that they were not willing to radically alter the rooms that MF and Alexander III had used when they contemplated setting up house at the AP.

[Peterhof]

I always saw the problem between MF and AF as a domestic one.  A mother and a wife, both influencing NA in many aspects of his life.  I see they both realized that NA's character called for a stronger person to advise him and even more to take some decisions for him.  Adding to this the possessive characters that both MF and AF had, I could understand why they did not get alone.

[diadem]

Having just read a book about the Romanovs recently that focused heavily on Alix and Minnie's dynamic, I had to read this thread. I'm not sure one person is more to blame than another for the coolness between them. Also, I was really trying to make sure that when I read about rifts between them I could be objective. I noticed instances where both women could be stubborn or even could have been a bit more understanding or made a bit more effort. All in all, I think they were two very different personalities that just didn't gel. I think Minnie had a very difficult time after Alexander III died and had a hard time letting go of her life as Empress with Alexander and transitioning into Dowager Empress. Alexandra is tough for me comment on. I think she was a very complex person who internalized a lot of things. She didn't have an easy life at a very young age. And in some respects I think her shyness and aversion at times to socializing was detrimental to her, and even the impression she gave people involuntarily. It seems that people had already made up their mind about her even before she married Nicky and that was very hard to change.

[Thomas_Hesse]

It was actually quite hard for Alexandra to deal with the impression of being stiff, stubborn, arrogant, cold that she made on people - even within her own family. In early letters she writes that it was totally wrong an impression and that her efford to improve was ignored...
So it was obviously a problem she was highly aware of - even as a young woman

[LisaDavidson]

And yet,

Surely both women became more 'big headed" when they left relative royal poverty for marriages to the heir to the Imperial Russian throne. I think one problem for these two was that they had somewhat similar circumstances but were so vastly different as people. Alexandra seemed to really care, for example, what others thought before becoming Empress. Afterwards, not so much. MF, on the other hand, clearly was always more personally charming, but could as has been cited be cruel in a way that only women can be - and Alexandra was rarely directly cruel.

I think that big egos played a part in the dysfunction of their relationship, but we must remember that their relationship wasn't always bad, it just wasn't as close and supportive as it could have been.