Empress Alexandra and Maria Feodorovna

[Sarai]

What would be the reaction of Maria F. if Alexandra F. had survived as only one of her family the excution?

One would like to hope that she would have forgotten her past bitterness towards her, and just be happy that she had survived the horrors. However, I tend to think that would not have happened, or at least, not until many years had passed. Instead, I believe that the Dowager would have been resentful that Alexandra had survived over her son and her grandchildren, to whom of course she was closer to. I also believe she would have placed a lot of the blame over the events that led to their murder on Alexandra, because of Rasputin's influence on her and because of her influence on Nicholas. I don't think she would have forgiven her daughter-in-law for neither the public events that brought about their dynasty's downfall, nor for the personal conflicts, such as the rift Alexandra caused between her and her son. I think her attitude would have been similar to that of her daughter Xenia's, who bitterly cried that Alexandra had turned her brother into a "dishrag" and blamed her for much.

[Janet_W.]

An excellent point, Helen.  

Lately I've heard several references to pogroms, mentioning that they were initiated by Alexander III upon the assassination of his father. While Nicholas has previously received the brunt of the blame, it seems that people are finally coming around to the concept that his father was far more culpable.

As for Grand Duke Alexander, he wrote fascinating memoirs, but I think it is easy to read between the lines and see that he was full of bluster and self-importance. "Sandro" might have made a interesting Tsar--I'm sure HE would have thought that!--but he also would have aggravated the heck out of people . . .  more so than Nicholas, albeit for different reasons. Plus, I doubt anyone would write empathetic memoirs to the memory of Tsar Alexander IV.  

[Teddy]

I think for myself that if Alexandra was the soul survivor of the execution, that MF in the first place will become mad at her daughter in law and that she would later, cry together for the loss of all the family members who didn't survive.

[JonC]

Hi Darth Olga.

Hey, you are kind-a right . My mother insisted I call older cousins 'aunty' and 'uncle' she said out of respect. I found out that I had been calling a cousin, whom I didn't like very well, uncle all along even till I was in my twenties. I got rather indignant when I found out he was just a second cousin. I had called him 'uncle' only because my mother had wanted it that way from when I was a small child otherwise, believe me, he would have been strictly cousin!

Similarly I rather believe that since AF and MF were not on good terms she would not have chosen to call her 'aunty' just out of the blue. They were never close or very familiar with each other until AF met up with Nicholas, her betrothed. I don't believe she would have called her future mother -in-law 'aunty' because its not done.

Once AF and NR were betrothed MF insisted, and rightly so, for AF to call her 'mother'! Therefore was MF, AF's real 'aunty'?

You said that AF was more of an English woman than a German woman. Is this because she was brought up by Queen Victoria after Alice's death? I haven't seen much written about the subsequent relationship between AF and Louis 4th, her father, after the death of her mother Alice. Do you know if they were close?

 One would think that the bonds between a father and a daughter would increase after the death of the mother. I don't see that between AF and Louis 4th. I wonder why it wasn't there? Why did Queen victoria decide to raise her instead?

AF was called 'a stiff Englishwoman' because she was clearly not German.

Sometimes I am so glad that I can "modify" these old posts.  Alix asked Marie what she should call her and asked if "Aunty-Mama" would be all right.  Marie replied that she was now "motherdear" and that is what she wanted to be called.  by Alixz 05/01/2009

[Sarai]

Alix was indeed very close to her father, although I agree that, unfortunately, there isn't a lot of information about their relationship. But one can gather this especially from the way she talked about him after his death, how dear he was to her and how much she missed him.

Alix was referred to as being more English than German because she spent so much time at Queen Victoria's court and was heavily influenced by her. Her tastes and styles were more British than German. Perhaps also because her own mother Alice was more of an influence in her early life as well. Alice was said to have retained a lot of her British customs in Germany, such as her interior decoration style and the way her nurseries were run, with the British nannies and such. After her death, Queen Victoria became like a surrogate mother to Alix. She lived in Darmstadt with her father and siblings, but visited her grandmother frequently enough, and the Queen was involved in her life through letters when she wasn't physically around. Alix also spoke more English than German, especially as an adult, thus another reason she was referred to as an "Englishwoman."

As to why Alix spent so much time with her grandmother, there could be several reasons. Firstly, she was her grandmother, and as such the closest adult female relative to the children. It is only natural that a grandmother, who is indeed a second mother to most children, would step in after the death of a parent. Also, perhaps in those days the idea of a man raising children alone, as a "single dad," was seen as strange, and both Louis and Queen Victoria agreed it was good for the children to have a maternal female figure in their lives, especially for the girls. A third possibility is perhaps because there was a period when there was a rift between Alix's father and Queen Victoria, as he chose to marry another woman not too long after Alice's death (six years). Perhaps Queen Victoria chose to keep the children with her longer to get them away from that scandalous atmosphere at home.

[Martyn]

Oh I agree.  One can find mystery anywhere if one looks hard enough.  We all have people who are loosely attached to our families, usually friends of our parents whom we are encouraged to call 'Uncle' or 'Aunt', usually at the insistence of our parents, in order to give these a people a familiar yet respectful appellation within the family.  I call the wife of my father's cousin 'Aunt' as it helps me to define the family attachment and give her a measure of respect.
And I can't help feeling that calling Alix's parentage into question unnecessarily is possible a bit lacking in respect....

[Mgmstl]

I think that this is one of my favorite topics. Minnie was
a socially accomplished, brilliant woman, who had 20
years as Tsarevna to become adjusted to the Russian
way of doing things, Alexandra had NO time.  I am not an admirer of Alexandra's in the least, but this is one place where I have sympathy with her, no matter what
the woman did, she could no right.  Minnie was no help
to her at all, inwardly she was jealous, and was probably the ONE person who could have helped A.F. in adjusting to her new role.  This is a big black mark in my
book for Marie, whom I do admire.

European royalty was so inter-related that they called
each other Aunt & Uncle and may have been cousins of
a distant branch, in those days even in small town
America distant cousins were called Aunt & Uncle by many as a term of respect & affection.  

In a letter to Q.V., her daughter Vicky, she makes a very interesting statement about A.F.'s somewhat rigid character.  (I am not quoting verbatim)  Something about A.F. letting her position go to her head.  

Alexander III & Marie were against the match, they were
very much pro French & discussed an alliance with Helene, the daughter of the Comte de Paris, who was
engaged to Eddy Duke Of Clarence, and later became  the Duchess of Aosta.  They were angling for a much more politically brilliant alliance for their son, then a minor German Princess, however of course A.F.'s pedigree was impeccable, with her connections to Q.V.
and of course to Alexander III's mother, and the Hesse
family tree can be traced back to Charlemagne.  I think
that could have caused some akwardness, there was even a discussion of Pcss. Margaret of Prussia.  

Evidently once the match was made any bitterness on
either side was buried.  Olga Alexandrovna, stated that
she felt her sister in law & mother had tried for years to
be close & understand each other, they were two different types of women.

I think that A.F.'s indifference to public opinion, & her refusal to be an Empress consort, hold court balls, parties, other than obligatory state functions, only led to the problems between her & her husband's family.

As far as Marie & Xenia blaming A.F., I can see their point there.  A.F. was brought up in one othe most liberal monarchies,& was influenced by her grandmother who warned her about getting her head turned by all of the magnificent jewels and the "power" she would hold. A.F. should have been more enlightened coming from the background she did, and of course Pcss. Alice was inclined to think of royalty as some sort of joke, but she chose to think of her position in other terms.  A.F also blindly embraced Rasputin, made bad decisions and was
instrumental in the downfall of the monarchy IMO.  

While I don't recall reading any statement of blame on
A.F. by Marie, I know Xenia made a couple of statements, to that effect.  However A.F. had cut herself off from anyone who disagreed with her by that point, even her own sister, so it is not suprising there was some resentment by those who survived the revolution.
The more I have read of A.F., I have found her to be less likeable, and yet for some the tragedy of Ekaterinberg cloaks her with holiness & wipes away her faults.  For me the tragedy lies with the fact that her children were killed with her.   Whatever her faults were as an Empress, and the bad decisions she made, no one deserves to be executed as they did.  

[Helen_Azar]

JonC, but you didn't address the fact that Alix was a  carrier of the hemophilia gene which she could have only inherited from her mother Alice who inherited it from her mother Queen Victoria. She couldn't have inherited it from Queen Alexandra if she were her daughter. What about that?

[Helen_Azar]

JonC, do you believe then that Alexei did not really have hemophilia?

[JonC]

That's right Helen. If Edward and Alexandra were 'Alix's' real parents then Alexie didn't have hemophilia. The photographs and DNA evidence the claimant has shown me further convinces me that this is so.

He has shown me two DNA reports. One from Dr. Gill's team and one from Dr. Melton's team.

[Helen_Azar]

That's right Helen. If Edward and Alexandra were 'Alix's' real parents then Alexie didn't have hemophilia. The photographs and DNA evidence the claimant has shown me further convinces me that this is so.

He has shown me two DNA reports. One from Dr. Gill's team and one from Dr. Melton's team.

JonC, I don't think I understand what you mean, what kind of DNA reports? And what kind of photographs?

[grandduchessella]

Helen, what is the title of the English book with Alice's letters in it? Thanks in advance.

Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain and Ireland: Biographical Sketch and Letters

There are 2 editions, the latter one published with a preface by Princess Helena. They both came out in the 1880s. There are copies to be found through the internet.

[Ming]

My, what an interesting discussion! So many new things to think about....About the "Aunty" thing: I wonder if that's what Ella, Alix's sister, called MF after her marriage to NA's uncle, and perhaps young Alix just copied her sister?  Just a thought.

Also, I have a feeling MF wasn't ready to give up her husband, her throne, her power, her jewels, her son, etc., to ANYBODY.  Tough time for all concerned.

Ming

[JonC]

If anyone is still interested in this subject...I got the book mentioned above, finally! I can't find where she says that she gave birth or that the delivery was painful. Does anyone have a page number? JonC.

[pinklady]

Amazing how Princess Alice's daughters are all beautiful and VERY similiar in apperance and you can really see the family resemblance in each and every one of them.
And Queen Alexandra's 3 daughters also have their OWN particular look to them(totally different to the beautiful Hessian look) and those 3 daughters all look similiar as well.
Except Queen Alexandra's daughters were PLAINER!!!!!!!

And Aunty is just an endearment, sorry.
My kids call my best friend Aunty and they always will, but they know she isnt like their other Aunties, of course!
No secrets, just Princess Alice and all her very beautiful children who all resemble each other.