Empress Alexandra and Maria Feodorovna

[Romanov_fan]

They were both fascinating women these two,even at odds. And it is interesting to read anything about them. Truth should always be honored, although gossip and false rumours can get in the way of understanding the lives of historical figures, and of people famous today, and even of someone down the street, because such things are universal, in time, place, and interest. People ought to realize that such gossip and innendo hurts more than it is good, and it is not necessary to spice anything up in hostory or life. The truth always is much more interesting than the false things people write or say.

[Caleb]

I'm sure that there was quite a bit of jealousy between Marie & Alix. I get the feeling that Marie Feodorovna wanted to be the center of attention in court & society, as well as in Czar Nicholas's life. I think when Alix of Hesse married Nicholas, Marie saw that she wasn't the only major woman in his life & got jealous & therefore, acted with coolness toward Alexandra. I also think it had to do with that Alix of Hesse was German-born & knowing that Marie Feodorovna, as well as her sister Alexandra, hated the Prussians, also lead to at least a bit of the hostility. If Marie Feodorovna & Alexandra Feodorovna had given & taken a little, there might have not been such a rift between the two women.

[Romanov_fan]

Yes, if they had been a bit more into give and take there would not have been so many issues or problems in their relationship, and that's something we all need to learn as well. If we keep an open mind, and agree to disagree that often makes things alot better. These women were opposites who didn't do that, and were more rigid, and one could argue that it would have better if they had been more flexible-but that's one thing that Alexandra wasn't, and I think Dowager Empress Marie was more fair minded, but also thought she was right. So much for agreement to appreciate one another's differences.

[grandduchessella]

Re: "Aunty"

Alexandra, Princess of Wales (later Queen Alexandra) was technically Empress Alexandra's aunt, being married to Alexandra (Alix's) maternal uncle (eventually Edward VII.) Empress Marie was Queen Alexandra's sister.  Liberal application would extend the aunt relationship to Minnie.  To JonC, you're the only person on the planet to EVER suggest that Alix was the child of ANYBODY but Princess Alice of Great Britian.  It simply isn't true and it is patently ludicrous!  

It's incredibly disrespectful for a child to address any adult without using an honorific of some sort, but within close friendships and family relationships it is strange to address an adult with whom there is an intimate relationship by the title a stranger or underling would use. "Aunty" was a compromise for Alix, just as here in Georgia we use "Miss" or "Mr" before a prenom.

Not to get too far off topic but I was reading some of QV's letters and she actually addressed Queen Wilhelmina as Cousin or Niece and QW responded Cousin or Aunt. Except for the ties that QW had to QV's DIL Helen Duchess of Albany (QW's aunt) there were only very distant ties between the two royal houses. Nonetheless a feeling of comradeship between the two Queens of different generations persisted. Given the relationship between AF and MF, calling her Aunty isn't surprising. Queen Alexandra called QV 'Mama' but AF might not have felt comfortable doing this given the personal difficulties and the loss of her own mother at such a young age.

[Caleb]

I've heard that Marie often blamed Alix for what was going on (is this true?) If so, I think Alix was somewhat of a scapegoat. I think that Minnie may have wanted to deny the fact that Nicholas did make some mistakes during his reign.

[griffh]

First off, thank you, Carlfraley, for correcting me about Paul.  You see, I had read that statement in one of my books and took it for fact.  I am indeed grateful to learn the truth.  

I think that this question of the two women, Alix and Dagmar, is summed up rather nicely by Baroness Buxhoeveden who said,

"Without actually clashing they seemed fundamentally unable...to understand on another."  

The Grand Duchess Olga, Nicky's sister added,

"...they tried to understand one another and failed.  They were utterly different in character, habits and outlook."

I found Caleb's remarks most interesting and spot on about Dagmar blaming Alix for Nicky's mistakes.  That is quite original thinking as far as I am concerned and I feel that such an insight as Caleb's is somehow connected with a remarkable quote from a fairly recent publication, "Born To Rule," which is a comparison between the five reigning Consorts of Queen Victoria; the Empress Alexandra, Queen Marie of Romania, Queen Maud of Norway, Queen Ena of Spain, and Queen Sophie of Greece.  

The author, Julia Gelardi, quotes a letter from Queen Louise of Denmark to her daughter, Dagmar.   Julia writes in her section on the Empress Alexandra,

"Just as Queen Victoria had feared, the life of Russia's beautiful young tsarina was about to become one dreadful trial after another.  and Alix need look no further than home to see where one battle was already brewing.  Her new mother-in-law was not about to concede her position as first lady in the land.  Despite showering Alix with lavish gifts, Empress Marie, ever confident, could not and would not bring herself to retire gracefully into the shadows.  Not long after Nicky and Alix became officially engaged, Empress Marie's own mother , Queen Louise of Denmark, urged Marie to work at being a good mother-in-law toward Alix:

'For yours and Nicky's sake start treating her like your own child, without fear, right away.  I have done wrong by Louise [the queen's daughter-in-law and wife of Crown Prince Frederick} and therefore spoiled Feddy's life, and she is pulling him away from me, this is where I am afraid for you: and therefore I am warning you.--Pull her [Alix] towards you, then you will keep him and pull her towards you with love!  God help you if you loose Nicky's trust and love, it will be the death of you.'

Julia adds, "Unfortunately, the empress [Marie] did not heed her mother's wise counsel..."

I hope that these ideas might be helpful.

[Alixz]

I also read that part of Born to Rule and thought the same.

However, Alix was Hessian.  The Hessians were not too fond of the Prussians either.

We tend, myself included, to call everyone who was pulled into the German unification, German, but many reserved their own loyalties.

The Unification took place in 1848, so technically, Alix was German, since she was born after the unifcation, but each Grand Duchy still held itself separate and unique as long as it could.

Victoria was of German descent as was Albert (Saxe Coburg Gotha) and so when Alice married Louis she was a German marrying a German (even though Alice was an English Princess and Louis was Hessian)

Why Dagmar would call Alix a "sitff Englishwoman" is beyond me, although I don't doubt that is what she called her.  Alix may have been raised English in the English ways, but she was by blood almost pure German.

Odd isn't it?  Her Germanic roots caused her trouble during the Great War, but somehow she is seen as English as well.  And I guess that didn't set well with her Danish mother in law.

[grandduchessella]

Perhaps she meant in personality that she was a stiff Englishwoman. Not by blood, but by the influence that Queen Victoria wielded over her from the time she was a small child. Alix, like many of QV's grandchildren, picked up decidedly English characteristics and personality traits. The Court of Queen Victoria, while easier than some, still had a lot of stiff formality and tradition.

[Nadezhda_Edvardova]

Above, JonC speculates rather extravagantly reasons why Alexandra may have referred to Marie as "aunty." But I note that Marie's mother was a princess of Schleswig-Holstein and descended from the house of Hesse-Cassel, so I imagine it is  possible for Marie and Alexandra to be related?  I haven't got the geneology properly done, but here's what I've got so far:

Hesse was divided many times, but it seems the divisions that lasted were Hesse-Cassel and Hesse-Darmstadt, which appear in the late 1500s.

Pax,

N.

[Caleb]

Well, Marie Feodorovna was the sister of her aunt-by-marriage. This also may have just been out of respect. my mom's closest friend, Cathy, I refer to as Aunt Cathy & her husband, as Uncle Jim. I accidentally once nearly refferred to Uncle Jim as "Uncle Bertie", as Uncle Jim has a resemblance to King Edward VII.

[griffh]

You know after reading the 6 pages of this thread, I think it should be renamed, "Why did Alix address Minnie as Aunt?"  The original question seems to have gotten lost in such a senseless dispute over such a trival point.    

[Romanov_fan]

That's true. I wish we could raise the original question in an interesting way, although trivia can be interesting sometimes.

[griffh]

Imperial Angel I was just disappointed in the direction the thread took and I guess I got grumpy.  I do agree that trivia can be a very good source of new information, but it is just that this is such a valuable thread that has spent so much thought and energy away from the topic.  But thank you for your kind reminder and I did sort of think that I was being a bit harsh and was sounding a bit judgemental.  Well do forgive me.  

[griffh]

So much has been written about the differences between Alix and her mother-in-law, Minnie, that I thought it might be interesting to trace some of their similarities.  I have found several of them in some of the books I am currently reading.  

First off both women were a source of delight for husbands.  Clearly Minnie was not as beautiful as Alix but she made up for this by her graceful form, charming manner, and her exquisite sense of fashion.  It is said that the Emperor Alexander III lovingly followed with his eyes his wife's beautiful form as she glided around the gorgeous ball-room of the Winter Palace during the various receptions and court balls that were held during the season.  

Nicholas was equally awed by his wife's beauty and her beauty caused a great sensation when she appeared at court functions during the first decade of her husbands rule.

Both women were very strict about the cut of gowns that were worn to court functions by the Russian noble women.  We know of stories of the young Empress calling for the carriages of aristocratic women whose gown was cut too low.  When Princess Cantacuzene wore a ball-gown to a court ball that was cut in a very low square design and came straight across and off the sholders, the young Empress had mentioned her objection that the Princess' ball gown was not cut in accord with the accepted court decollete.  For a week or so after the ball Princess Cantacuzene's square cut gown became a cause celebre among the younger aristoratic set who all arrived in square cut gowns at the next court ball.

However it is not as well known that the Empress Dowager was equally strict about the cut of ball gowns and tabooed the appearance of sleeveless gowns or gowns that she felt were cut too low.  And she maintained her strict fashion taboos all the way through her life as did the young Empress.  As late as 1912 the Empress Dowager would not admitt any woman in her presence who was wearing the extremely fashionable knee split hobble skirts that the teenage dancing wonder and fashion arbitor, Irene Castle, had made to popular in Paris.  The differece between the two Empress' was that no one dared cross the Empress Dowager while no one cared to obey the younger Empress.

Minnie's sister, Queen Alexandra of England did not appear to share the strict attitude of her sister or niece Alix.  When Princess Montesquiou Montluc Siena appeared at the English Court in a hobble skirt created by Worth, far from banishing the Princess from her presence, Queen Alexandra was so enchanted by the new fashion that she asked the Princess for a photograph of her in the gown and later the Princess was also painted in the gown.  

Neither Alix or Minnie shared Queen Alexandra's love of the latest fashion trends, even though Alix continued to maintain a current sense of fashion while Minnie seemed to slip into a sort of modified version of the "tailored suits" and hats and hair-do's of the late 1890's.        

Another similarity between both women was their attitude regarding morality.  Both women had loyal husbands.  There is only one possible exception with Alexander III that occured during a state visit to Austria when he apparently spend an evening with the Emperor Franz Joseph's mistress.  And there is some speculation about the Empress Dowager's relationship with a certain Russian Prince in the later years of her life.  But there may be no more validity to these stories than the ones that circulated about Alix and Prince Orloff around the time of the birth of Alexis.

It is well known that the younger Empress was very concerned about the lack of morality among the Russian aristocracy and created a scandal in the first years of her husband's reign by refusing to invite any aristocrat that had been compromised by a scandal to her court ball.  However the Empress Dowager was equally concerned about the lack of morality among the Russian court.  It is recorded that when the Empress Dowager found out that the Commander of the Squadron, that was to accompany her son Nicholas on his voyage around the world, was living openly with his mistress, the Empress Dowager made the Commander marry his mistress before the voyage began.

Both women were actively involved in Charitable causes and both women had great sympathy for other people's grief and both rejoiced in other peoples gladness.  

Both women retired from the social life of St. Petersburg at about the same time.  The younger Empress retired after the difficulties in 1905 and the Empress Dowager withdrew from all social entertainment by 1905 and by 1908 began to spend a great deal of time outside of Russia.  The Empress Dowager seldom invited anyone to dinner-parties at Anitchkoff palace and only broke her retirement in 1914 by giving a dance for Olga and Tatiana.

I hope other's can add more similarities between Alix and Minnie.  
  

      

  

[aleksandra]

Wow I never knew they had that many. I am absolute amazed . Way to go .