Empress Alexandra and Maria Feodorovna

[griffh]

Aleksandra,

It is really interesting to do this comparison.  The other thing I forgot to mention is that both women had difficulty with lanuages.  We know that the younger Empress had a difficult time with French and did not speak it with ease and we know that it took her a decade to become fluent in Russian though she finally mastered the language and was considered to have a good accent.  

It is not as well known that the Empress Dowager also had difficulty with languages.  Where she was fluent in French, unlike the younger Empress, the Empress Dowager never was able to master the Russian language and always spoke it with great difficulty.  That is why she spoke French at Court and in society and it is also why she spoke English within her family, in spite of of the fact that Alexander III tried his hardest to promote the Russian lanuage at Court and at home.

I think that one of the things that becomes clear to me through tracking the similarities of each woman is how differently those similarities played out in their lives.  One account I am reading states that during the reign of Nicholas II:

"The open laxity of morals did not exist in the reign of Alexander III.  The Emperor had a high standard of honour for himself and for his subjects.  Besides it was well known that the Empress Marie Feodorovna loathed people who had led immoral lives.  In those days...society would naturally have followed the Sovereign's lead, and this ostracism would have effectually quenched the eagerness of enterprising women..."

Again both women "loathed people who lead immoral lives" but the effect of that loathing created respect for the Empress Dowager while it created ostracism for the young Empress.  

I think what I am beginning to realize from this comparison of similarities that it is not a question of differences of character between the two women so much as question of sympathy.  


          

[Romanov_fan]

Thanks for those interesting posts of yours, grifh. I agree about what you said, and these are things I could never have thought of on my own. We so often see these two women as very different, but in reality that isn't wholly true. As you point put, it was more how they were regarded than essential differences that makes us percieve them differently.

[Caleb]

Both were raised Lutheran
Both were "German"
Both were brought up in a "backwater"
Both had reigning relatives in other countries
Both had a dislike of Prussian militarism & both disliked Kaiser Wilhelm II
Both became married under unusual circumstances

[griffh]

Hey Caleb that is really a great list of similarities!!!

Both women had older sisters who had extremely elegant taste in clothes.
Both women had a plainer sister who was connected by marriage to the Kaiser.  (Alix's sister Irene married the Kaiser's brother, Henry.  Dagmar's sister Thrya's son, the Duke of Cumberland, married the Kaiser's daughter, Viktoria.)
Both women reacted exactly the same way to Nicholas' abdication.
Both women influenced Nicholas' political choices.
Both women loved Russia.
Both women were monarchists.


    

[Romanov_fan]

Yes, both are great lists, and very true. Perhaps Marie Feodorovna merely was able to express herself better to society and the Russian people than Alexandra who was an interesting person with much to offer, but who was shy and could not really communicate or inspire empathy in society or among more ordinary subjects. This might be their greatest difference which overcame all the similarities they undoubtly had.

[griffh]

You know, even thought this thread is devoted to similarities, I just found out by reading the memories of one of the many American ministers to Russia that the Empress Dowager and the Young Empress were often at the same court events and while the Younger Empress stood isolated and distant, the Empress Dowager was charm itself.  The thing that struck me was that the Empress Dowager could have so easily included the Younger Empress and put her at her ease if she had really wanted to embarace her as a daughter.  I know that there are arguements on both sides for the distance between the women, but that letter that the Empress Dowager's mother wrote to her warning her not to continue her cold sholdering of the Younger Empress really has stayed with me. 

I guess in a way that is another similarity that both women shared, the abliity to cold-sholder people that made them feel uncomfortable. 

 

[Ortino]

I don't believe that even Minnie's help could have put Alix totally at ease. If one is not at ease in large public gatherings from the start, then it is difficult to break that fear.  I, for example, suffer from terrible stage fright. Even if someone is up there with me, I still have trouble at times overcoming it. Kindness and understanding on Minnie's part might have helped somewhat, but it would have still been hard for her to comprehend the full extent of Alix's fear, particularly since she was so comfortable herself. Besides, socialization was an essential part of their world and Minnie couldn't have been too thrilled with having such a reclusive daughter-in-law.

[griffh]

Ortino that is a really good point and I am sure that it would not have been easy for the Empress Dowager to put Alix at her ease and the Empress Dowager's own daughter Xenia was even more shy in public than Alix. 

I think that my point was that the Empress Dowager could have shielded Alix from criticism as she did her own daughter, instead of encouraging the criticism.  Dagmar shielded her own daughter without being able to change her shyness.  And then there is that very telling letter from Queen Louise of Demark, the Empress Dowager's own mother, in which Queen Louise told Dagmar in no uncertain terms to stop alienating Alix and to start treating her life a real daughter or she would eventually loose her son Nicholas, in the same way that Queen Louise, through similar actions to one of her daughter-in-laws, lost the affection of one of her own sons. 

The other thing that I think about is that during one of her cousin's visits in the 1890's Alix was relaxed and confident and went everywhere in society with her cousin.  I don't know, maybe I am wrong. 

[Ortino]

I've never seen Xenia referred to as shy, but I could be wrong. If she was indeed shy, I think that the saying "blood is thicker than water" is highly relevant. Some people are willing to overlook the faults of those closest to them, but not the same ones in others. Minnie and Xenia seemed to have had a relatively good relationship--she certainly saw Xenia's children MUCH more often than she saw Nicholas'-- and that probaby contributed to her willingness to shield her from public scrutiny. Alix was a relative stranger to her in comparison and one she apparently identified quickly as being unsuited for the role of Empress. Alix seems to have been very at ease with those closest to her, explaining perhaps her behavior in the 1890's. She also didn't have the heavy burdens of being Empress on her shoulders then either.

[Tsarina_Liz]

Well, methinks neither of them would have appreciated this line of conversation...

We so often discuss their differences because they were exaggerated in life.  Why?  Both women were exceedingly stubborn and unwilling to change.  They remained frigid towards each other and worked so hard at being polar opposites, despite obvious similarities, it ruined any potential relationship. 

PS: I haven't been here in a couple of months and am a little thrown by the new style.  Have we all been knocked back down to newbie?  I do so miss being a God.

[Georgiy]

I do wonder if the differences and estrangement between them has not been somewhat exagerrated. GD Alexander wrote in his book how after the IF were imprisoned at Tsarskoe that the Dowager Empress intended to go there and share their imprisonment to be with her son, and help Alix cope. If the relationship between the two was as bad as we are lead to believe, it would seem a very strange thing for her to want to try and do. I think possibly they were very similar and that can explain why they had difficulty getting on with each other. It is touching the the DE wanted to help Alix when the IF was imprisoned. It is interesting to think about what might have happeded if Xenia and the others hadn't stopped Maria F from going. Would England have let the Queen Mother's sister be taken along to Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg and killed? Would Maria F's going along with the IF ultimately lead to their survival...

[Tsarina_Liz]

I do wonder if the differences and estrangement between them has not been somewhat exagerrated. GD Alexander wrote in his book how after the IF were imprisoned at Tsarskoe that the Dowager Empress intended to go there and share their imprisonment to be with her son, and help Alix cope. If the relationship between the two was as bad as we are lead to believe, it would seem a very strange thing for her to want to try and do. I think possibly they were very similar and that can explain why they had difficulty getting on with each other. It is touching the the DE wanted to help Alix when the IF was imprisoned. It is interesting to think about what might have happeded if Xenia and the others hadn't stopped Maria F from going. Would England have let the Queen Mother's sister be taken along to Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg and killed? Would Maria F's going along with the IF ultimately lead to their survival...

Excellent point.  They seem to have taken the traditional battle of in-laws farther than average people though.  But then again they did live on a different scale.  Two stubborn women trying to fill the same role couldn't end happily.  I doubt, however, the presence of the DE would have influenced the fate of the IF.  I think she would have been seperated from the family when they moved and taken into a more gentle exile.  I do think she would have ended up like the rest of her family: shot.  Simply remaining in the situation, however much on the periphery, was a death sentence. 

[griffh]

I do wonder if the differences and estrangement between them has not been somewhat exagerrated. GD Alexander wrote in his book how after the IF were imprisoned at Tsarskoe that the Dowager Empress intended to go there and share their imprisonment to be with her son, and help Alix cope... Would England have let the Queen Mother's sister be taken along to Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg and killed? Would Maria F's going along with the IF ultimately lead to their survival...

I agree with Tsarina_Liz that you have really made a great point and is more or less the reason I wanted to start the thread.  I have just finished reading the Czar's letters to his mother and she mentions her concern for Alix often.  It is interesting that the letters cover a period from 1879 to 1917 and Minnie mentions Alix in her letters written in the 1890's and then again in 1915-1917.  I think that the two rival courts had a great deal to do with exaggeration of the two women's differences.  It is here that I remember Anna Virubova's remarks to Rheta Childe Dorr, "This much I do know, that it was difficult, very difficult, at the Russian court, to avoid being drawn into political intrigues...A court is made up of numberless little cliques, each one with its endless gossip, it whisperings, its secrets and its plots, big and small.  There is nothing too big or too small for these cliques to concern themselves with...They plot to raise this one to power and they plot to bring about the fall of another.  They plot in peace and they plot in war.  The person who lives at court and is not drawn into some of these plots is an exception to the rule."

I think that the Empress Dowager would have perished with the IF if she had gone to be with them becasue of location more than anything else.  The hatred towards the IF by the local Soviets in Ekaterinburg was far more savage than some of the Soviet units that guarded the Empress Dowager and the other Romanoffs in the Crimea.  As it was, without the duplicity of their bolshevik captor, the Empress Dowager and her fellow Romanoff relatives would have perished just before the German occupation of the Crimea.     

[Romanov_fan]

I don't think that these women could have helped each other, nor understood how to. They had too many differences for that, and perhaps each wanted to go their own way, and not be concerned with each other. Perhaps they simply did not understand each other either. They were united by some things, but perhaps divided by more. But sometimes, trouble leads to the unification of families, rather than driving them apart. As for helping Alexandra in coping with public life, Alexandra was not naturally a public figure, whereas the Dowager Empress was very social. You can't help someone change their personality, amd I don't see the Dowager Empress able to help Alexandra cope with getting more comfortable with public life, because she was social, and wasn't really the kind of person to help someone cope.

[griffh]

I think you are spot on imperial angel!  The other involuntary difference was the Empress Marie's use of dissimulation or more softly put, her use of "little white lies" to control her husband's temper, a practice that she had passed on to her children including Nicholas II.  Alexandra's forthright character could not abide the use of dissimulation for any reason.  She faced her opponents head on.  I have no doubt that Alix would have gained the respect of Alexander III.   

Those two highly spirited, loyal women, Alix and Minny, were at odds with each other because of their basic make up as women.  But in credit to both these noble women, their history of antagonism was something that neither woman wanted, as they fought each other to maintain the love and loyalty of the same man, that dear Nicholas II.