List of the Line of Succession

[Belochka]

... Actually, her Russian grandparents fled Russia in 1917 for Finland. Her father was born there shortly thereafter.

She is not the head of the family, she is the head of the dynasty according to the Fundamental Law.

You're welcome to your opinion as always Ms.Davidson.

Indeed, the Imperial Fundamental Law no longer had legal validity after March 3, 1917. Therefore all statutes contained therein ceased to have legal effect. What followed was a matter of inventiveness and wishful thinking.

[Belochka]

What I meant was, does the title of prince ever stop being passed down to each successive generation.  Is there ever a time, when the descendants ever just become plain Mr. and Miss Romanov?  Do they ever lose their Prince of the House of Romanov title.

The practice is a symbolic connection to Russia's past glory, without substance or favor in Australia.

In Australia such tiltles are inconsequential. One is not offered  immediate recognition to be placed on the State's "A List", or could one expect to be seated close to the Queen during one of her State visits. One does not expect to receive exclusive service. Old Russian titles count for nothing. Australian society does not recognize if one's imperial grandparents were titled nobility. A gathering of ex-counts, ex-barons and even an occassional visit by a prince was not unusual, and could only be viewed as a quaint curiosity. Those citizens (most no longer among the living) became naturalized in their adopted country, and gladly accepted the laws of the Commonwealth. Therefore they were never addressed by anything other than "Mr" or "Mrs" in public nor had they written distinctive titles on their tax forms unless that title was gained by academic means.

Elsewhere overseas, similar descendants act differently and no doubt their new rules serve them them appropriately.

Margarita

[dmitri]

Titles can continue to be passed on. The real issue is whether they any longer have significance. The Russian Empire ceased in March 1917 after all. With the passage of time, titles not connected with a reigning royal house lose their significance as they are no longer really connected with anything tangible.

An interesting person to look at is Prince Lorenz of Belgium, husband of Princess Astrid of Belgium. Before the marriage he was a simply a member of the former ruling House of Habsburg. That of course stopped being a reigning royal and imperial house in November 1918. Prince Lorenz was born in 1955. Prince Lorenz's grandfather was the last Emperor Karl I of Austria-Hungary and died in 1922. The title Prince Lorenz was born to was basically without meaning as the Habsburgs were a defunct royal house. He may still be an Archduke of Austria-Este but his title of Prince of Belgium, created by Belgian royal decree on 10 November 1995 is the important one as it is associated with a reigning royal house. Austria and Hungary are both republics. Titles from the former Austrian Empire and Kingdom of Hungary are now apart from being historical curiosities, meaningless. Of course Prince Lorenz still uses his title from birth. It is however not the important title. It is merely now a courtesy.

Former King Michael of Romania's title and that of former King Constantine of the Hellenes are interesting to examine. They still use their titles as they were once reigning monarchs. Nobody can deny this. A different matter comes when one thinks of future generations not born before the abolition of the Romanian and Greek monarchies. Will anybody take such titles seriously in 100 years time unless there has been a restoration in the former kingdoms? King Constantine has the benefit of being the brother of the Queen of Spain and brother-in-law of the reigning Queen of Denmark. That gives him prominence that the claimant to the defunct throne of Albania does not have.

There are many pretenders to defunct royal houses. Some still pay attention to claimants. Others simply see them as fair for articles or colour photos in magazines from time to time.

It is up to the individual to contemplate what importance is given to a title no longer associated with any reigning royal or imperial house. Time tends to provide the answer.       

[LisaDavidson]

What I meant was, does the title of prince ever stop being passed down to each successive generation.  Is there ever a time, when the descendants ever just become plain Mr. and Miss Romanov?  Do they ever lose their Prince of the House of Romanov title.

It all depends on how you reckon such things. In a strictly legal sense, since there is no more Russian Empire, all members of the dynasty became untitled commoners in 1917/18. Today's descendants often live in republics where titles generally aren't used. There will always be people who believe in the continuance of the dynasty, as well as those who do not.

For those who recognize such things, all male line descendants are considered by some to be a "Prince Romanov" even though this title did not exist under the Empire.

[dmitri]

It is not a strictly legal sense. The Russian Empire simply does not exist at all and has not since 1917.

[TampaBay]

True!  But I am glad we continue to talk about it. 

TampaBay

[imperialruss]

Privet to all on the forum,


Greetings for the 08 year, for me l will be celebrating tommorrow that is Sunday for New Year, Old Style !.

Re the Tour of Australia and the ceremony at the shrine

 l was the designer of the programme for that day, l can tell you honestly, Russians were heartfully crying on the day, the service to remember the Russian Anzacs.... well it was from the deepest depths of the heart, the weather was magnificent, it was grand to march on the day, we had the Old Imperial Flag, the Current and presidential flag as well, the Victorian Police Band, had played God Save the Tsar, luckily l had found them the sheet music, the secretary of the Russian Embassy and Ambassador recieved the Order of St Anne and were happy to recieve it as well as the Archbishop of Australia and New Zealand '' Hilarion ''.

For all those whom are argueing about succession here ia an approved document from the Russian Orthodox Church on Succession. This was authored by Prince Cyril Toumanoff,
Professor of History,
Emeritus Georgetown University
Washington, D.C.

approved by the Orthodox Church, Prince Cyril was highly respected by the Vatican as well.






http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf


www.russianimperial.com.au

www.russianball.com.au

http://www.monarhist.ru/club.htm


The Tour was exceptional and very well recieved, the dinner in Melbourne was surperb and the HIH spoke in both perfect Russian and English, the Venue was packed to the edges. A complete success and the Russian community were thrilled !.

l can only say that the majority of Russians , HIH was recieved as the Head of the Dynasty and the community came out in great numbers, here is the news letter from the Russian Welfare Society which contains many photos of the HIH Grand Duchess Maria, they are in the October News letter on the Russian Welfare site, you will clearly see in one photo the Russian Federation Ambassador and the First Secretary with HIH in the middle, the Ambassador has the Order of St Anne First Class and 3rd class for the secretary.
 
 HIH is a very caring and delightfull person, when you meet HIH , HIH exudes warmth and generous in spirit under dificult circumsatances.

HIH proved a marvellous communicator and genuine in warmth on the Australian tour, we were absolutely stunned at the HIH ability to be emapthetic and caring, a wonderfull concern for the disadvantaged as well, dont believe all you read in the media.

Greetings to all

Imperial Regards

Stepan Maximovich

Chancellor Russian Imperial Union Order Australia

http://russianwelfare.org.au/pdf/october_2007.pdf


Russian Welfare Society

If you go to the Orders web site to the media page on our Australian web site and click photos then double click the links there are plenty of photos, l love the photo of HIH with Princess Mary , do notice HIH is placed at the forefront by all the other royals in the group photos inside the Cathederal, HRH prince Micheal of England ect

Photos Media



This is an excellent link for you, much news, the Latest on the HIH GD Maria

for those non Russia speakers please put the URL in Babel fish and it will give you a transaltion , not perfect but enough to keep up with the latest news, one on one interviews with HIH GD George

again for the non Russians please read a previous posting of the link to the HIH GD Maria secretary web site , same thing put the URL in Babel fish .


http://www.monarhia.ru/


   Monarhia.Ru [ the main web site a must for all those making opinions please read the articticles in detaiil, all the latest updates includind a very strong support from MOSPAT by Metropolitan Kirill, Dean of overseas relations

RIUO




http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=2804


http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2007/s1996691.htm live footage Russian Ball in Melbourne


http://www.kro.su/ Monarchist political party Russia

[imperialruss]

 

Dear Miss Davidson,

l enjoy your comments, however on the issue of people losing entitlements ect, for example if in Americia  there was a coup and  a socialist group took over with out a proper election, what would you think may happen ?, would that be legal ?, l then declare all American Olympic medalists are now not medaliists any more as we have a new system, for example  these  people didnt lose the titles they have transported them to the disapora, the Kerensky Government was the legitimate successor, Americia is big on legiitimacy accountabilitity, if you examine what happened none of this took place, we all know what terror came after the provisional government, what about the Kronstadt
sailors whom tried to put Marx ideas in place but were put down by the German backed Lenin, he laughed all the way to the bank with the millions of marks to help him, if he hadnot this help he plainly would not of  brought the provisional government down, what did the man of steel do, with the flick of his wrist he sent millions to the gulag.


Its interesting western views of all of this, so clinical in its analysis, millions died, starved, many of these comments are an afront to the families that were effected and l am not talking just the upper classes but all, a really terrible thing happened, l have shown some of the comments to the Dr Baroness Dolgoruky whom nearly fell on the floor, when HIH Cyril wrote his manifesto he commented on a sitution that was happening in Russia at the time, there was a famine , millions perished, you can see some very graphic photos of the bodies in historical books, this is the thing Stalin or Joe the devil  sold grain by the millions overseas rather than feed the people.

Beria the rewiter of history and the lover of things he should not cried like a pig when they came for him after joe kicked the bucket, so many millions died under the illegal hammer and sickle, so no l am sorry, they never lost thier titles nor did the ordinary private in the Imperial Army lose his Imperial medals, l suspect this western idealogue will continue to whittle at the legagcy of Byzantium, l will put you in my prayers.

Stepan Maximovich

[LisaDavidson]

Dear Miss Davidson,

l enjoy your comments, however on the issue of people losing entitlements ect, for example if in Americia  there was a coup and  a socialist group took over with out a proper election, what would you think may happen ?, would that be legal ?, l then declare all American Olympic medalists are now not medaliists any more as we have a new system, for example  these  people didnt lose the titles they have transported them to the disapora, the Kerensky Government was the legitimate successor, Americia is big on legiitimacy accountabilitity, if you examine what happened none of this took place, we all know what terror came after the provisional government, what about the Kronstadt
sailors whom tried to put Marx ideas in place but were put down by the German backed Lenin, he laughed all the way to the bank with the millions of marks to help him, if he hadnot this help he plainly would not of  brought the provisional government down, what did the man of steel do, with the flick of his wrist he sent millions to the gulag.


Its interesting western views of all of this, so clinical in its analysis, millions died, starved, many of these comments are an afront to the families that were effected and l am not talking just the upper classes but all, a really terrible thing happened, l have shown some of the comments to the Dr Baroness Dolgoruky whom nearly fell on the floor, when HIH Cyril wrote his manifesto he commented on a sitution that was happening in Russia at the time, there was a famine , millions perished, you can see some very graphic photos of the bodies in historical books, this is the thing Stalin or Joe the devil  sold grain by the millions overseas rather than feed the people.

Beria the rewiter of history and the lover of things he should not cried like a pig when they came for him after joe kicked the bucket, so many millions died under the illegal hammer and sickle, so no l am sorry, they never lost thier titles nor did the ordinary private in the Imperial Army lose his Imperial medals, l suspect this western idealogue will continue to whittle at the legagcy of Byzantium, l will put you in my prayers.

Stepan Maximovich

It's Mrs. Davidson, actually. I don't get your point at all.

If there were a revolution in the United States, there are still no titles here at all to speak of.

I agree that the Provisional Government was the legitimate successor government to the tsarist regime. The USSR was an outlaw state. Russia is now going through horrible difficulties in once again becoming a country of law. Her suffereing is unfortunately not over, I fear.

[dmitri]

Ms. Davidson it is always interesting to read your opinions and note your empathy for others. It is an obscure view to describe the Soviet Union as an outlaw state. I wonder whether the huge number of countries which officially recognised it for decades would ever agree with your summation?

[imperialruss]

 My apologies , Mrs Davidson

Greetings, Some American  Generals recently have been willing to accept UK Titles,  l was using Olympic medals as an example , lets say l was Audie Murphy there was a take over, coup the new group said all American medals prior to our new Government are now void and l fled to England, have l lost the medal of honour ?   l think not, because America doesnot have Royal Titles l am using some thing else as an example, an award that is dear to America, just imagine taking that away and telling the reciepients '' TOO BAD'' , can you imagine all those enlisted imperial soldiers whom fought at the front against Germany had to throw thier medals away because some bald despot in a leather cap forced it on them with his horse  '''Trotting mate'' .

You were qucik to correct me on that you are Mrs Davdson, not Miss that just an example how people want thier correct title used !

Stepan

[Annie]

It is not a strictly legal sense. The Russian Empire simply does not exist at all and has not since 1917.

Yes, it's because of this that the old rules no longer apply.

Vladimir's claim was questionable since his mother was divorced and not Orthodox at his birth. Maria V. should not be the one in line now. Her mother's family would have been the same as the Yussoupovs, an anciet deposed monarchy, and we know that Irina had to marry Felix morgatanically. Her son is a Hohenzollern more than a Romanov. She always seemed to me like a tabloid story instead of a Duchess.

The Illynski family (Dmitri's line) is more suited, and as they have mentioned, the closest direct line of male descent from Alexander II.

But considering the monarchy is over and the rules don't apply, I'd say the closest line of succession should be Xenia's boys, after all they are double Romanov through Sandro too. Being the sister of the Tsar, oldest surviving child of Alexander III and sibling of Nicholas II, and a direct descendant, Xenia, by the British law of succession would have been 'Tsarina in exile.'  I still regard her sons as head of the family, and apparently they themselves do too. This makes much more sense. (they also have a lot more class than Maria V.)

[imperialruss]

Well another person whom intimately knows the HIH  know how her family for years has been full on with the Emigre community, have worked countless hours to free Russia, have you seen all the old video clips from the diaspora ?, do you know all the travelling that had been completed the stress of it all the hard work HIH GD Vladimir put in, l am wandering if you had been involved in the Russian Community all those years and understood all of this, the complexity.the net works, the Imperial Union Order has battled the fight for the homeland, the countless hours of fund raising , protesting at soviet embassies, sending men off to fight, a lot of these light weight lounge lizard comments are very weak and have no strength in the white Russian  community.

The recent trip to Australia was a complete success, Russian and Aussies came out in big numbers, you can read the pdf file l posted  to the previous page, there is commentary and photos, you will find Russians in the diaspora have a different opinion, you have not been involved since the loss of the homeland and have no idea of the work put in, a recent Russian production of Good bye Russia would bring you to your knees, Ataman Federoff [RIP MORE THAN 100 YEARS OF AGE] gave a compelling account of the loss and pain.

That little balding man MAN IN THE CAP WHOM ACCEPTED MILLION OF GERMAN MARKS to assist in the break down of the legal Government, the beginnings of the terror that came after.

The HIH GD Maria and family have put very much to the cause, l will forgive you because you haven't been involved and wont know about the countless hours book producing and rescue operations that were completed, support of the church . What counts now is Russia does have a legal Government but it took  80 years to get it, why are all the old symbols back ? Mospat wont have a bar of the others you have  mentioned either have you read all the statements by metropolitan Kirill, l have posted a site previously, my dear friend whom is eighty  six was at the reburial of general Denikin and spoke on national radio in  Moscow, the people around him were crying when he started on the real picture.

Stepan

[dmitri]

The monarchy is long gone in Russia. Let it rest in peace. It is part of history and unwanted. There is no sign of any mass popular movement in Russia to restore it. Nicholas II and the majority of his immediate family are finally buried. Soon DNA tests will reveal whether the so-called remains of Alexis and Marie are those of the last remaining children. It is all now history. Pretenders are curious beings. I guess if they let go and faced reality they would have nothing left to cling to and would have to find a real job like the rest of us and keep their own family history as everybody else does, as history. Empty titles count for nothing without a reigning royal house to go with them. A disputed line of succession to a monarchy that has been defunct for over 90 years is rather bizarre to say the least. It's about as real as Alice in Wonderland. Those who lremaining ones who outside of Russia and have longings for a long defunct and totally discredited monarchy in Russia hardly represent or understand what is happening to those hundreds of millions who live and try to survive in the Russia Federation. In fact those who live outside in most cases never want to return to Russia except as tourists with visas to ensure they can leave.

[imperialruss]

 Dear Dimitri,

You sound angry ,  The Order has since a massive growth in Russia, why is this ?, l was there recently, yes, l see the problems very clearly, they are  related to your socialist period and the struggle to get out of it into something else, we constantly raise money for orphanages and have been trying to raise money for soldiers whom have become disabled, l still have relatives there and stay with them every year, many of our members outside have gone back to live there,time is the only answer for this.

The other thing is education, during the socialist period there was good education except on history for obvious reasons, if l was to ask a lot of Russians what actually happened some only know the out line, comparative studies is a very helpful way to go, l believe in looking at both sides of the coin, in truth civil un elected or elected governments can be just as bad, l said previously look at South America , what has happened there over the years, you are being  just as tyrannical in your comments, every one has rights but l believe many comments are unresearched are just position statements, there are a mass of people internally in Russia that feel differently to you, we have many conferences in Moscow and St Petersburg they are well attended and many issues are debated

we are  only too aware of what's going on , it sounds like you would like to immigrate yourself.

Stepan