The make of a bayanet

[AGRBear]

THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA by John Klier and Mingay p. 158:

>>Other marks on her body include a triangular scar on the top and bottom of one foot, disfigurments that would be consistent with accounts that the triangular blade of a Russian bayonet had pierced right through her foot during the massacre at Ekaterinburg.  She also had agroovee, one inch above her right ear, that would have been a bullet scar."

So according to Klier and Mingay the scar on her foot was "^" [triangular].

They do not attach their source.


AGRBear

[catt.sydney]

Hello Everyone.

HMMMM! Facinating stuff.
   Regarding the "star shaped wound" are there any photos? (Is that question too forensic?)
   I think that Elfvine has a valid perspective. According to the urban legend the notion of the scar being "star shaped" is refuted by the apparent evidence of it looking more 'wedge- like' or angular.
   We ought to realize that we are dealing with a certain amount of rumour and myth in this case.

By the way - where is AnnAnderson?
Was she chased off?


happy holidays
Catt

[David_Pritchard]

     By suggesting that AA was 'damaged' in Berlin I should have stated that I meant NOT by Bayonet but by any opportunity for any explosion or any sort of structural collapse...
        Was AA always in Berlin or was she ever in any other part of the country where at any time she might have gotten a number of scars?  

If I remember correctly, did AA not try to drown herself in Berlin a river? Maybe by jumping off of a bridge?

I remember a story that was told to me long ago as to why I should never dive off of the railroad bridge into the local river near to where I was reared. A boy had done so some years earlier and he landed on top of a bicycle that had be thrown off the bridge and had settled into the mud sitting upright, the the unfortunate boy was almost emasculated by the rusting metal of the bicycle when he landed in the water. The same can be said about the dangers of diving off bridges over rivers in Europe. Every year the Amsterdam authorities dredge up an enormous number of stolen bicycles that were thrown off bridges into canals.

Who is to say that the deranged Polish woman did not receive her injuries on debris in the river when she attempted to commit suicide?

David

[Rachael89]

Apparently many of the wounds were old when she was first found, up to two or three years old. I'm no expert but I'm preety sure most of the wounds were scars and the like though it wouldn't suprise m if there were any fresh wounds from her suicide attempt.

Rachael

[David_Pritchard]

Interesting information if AA's scar was "star shaped".  Would this bayonet be a long blade like the one for the Mosin-Nagant 1891 and too awkward to use like a knife?   Penny and Greg's book described Ermakov using his bayonet like a knife rather than it being atttached to a rifle on his victims that night and why I am asking.
AGRBear

Any military historian will tell you that there have been innumerable cases of spike bayonets being used like knives in close combat. It is possible, though the hand held spike bayonet is less effective minus the weight of the rifle. This could be the reason behind the extended time that was needed by the assassins to finish off the survivors. But had the assassins been required to dispatch the survivors by hand, I think that this fact would have been stated in the recollections of the Bolsheviks. Stabbing someone to death with a hand held spike bayonet is not a deed that would have easily been forgotten in the recollections of so many of the assassins.

David

[AGRBear]

Book Two: THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  by King and Wilson p. 309:

>>Out of bullets, Yurovsky yelled to Ermakov, who turned back to the center of the room, pulling an eight-inch, triangular bayonet from his belt as he stumbled over the growing pile of arms and legs?<<

Bayonet was not attached to a rifle in Penny's interruptation of the murder of Nicholas II and the others.

The knife had not been mention as being part of his weapons which caused his belt earlier on p. 302.

Over on p. 311:

Ermakov continued to cause wounds with his bayonet and there is a description of him trying to kill Anasasia but the knife didn't penetrate her bodice.

Ermakov continued using the bayonet to kill.  His next victim was Alexandra....

I asume these bayonet wounds mentioned are from some forensic report which talks about the bones and the marks which were probably created by a knife/bayonet instead of bullets.  

Let me see,  it's marked "147" so let me go to the back of the book and see the source: Strekotin, 1934, TsDOOSO, f.221 op. 2, d. 849.

AGRBear

According to King and Wilson in the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  a triangler shaped bayonet was used to stab at the real GD Anastasia.

David tells us the following about the triangler shaped bayonet:

My involvement in this entire thread is to supply technical advice. I do not believe that AA was in fact anyone other than a disturb Polish woman.

A triangular bayonet would seem to be an unlikely weapon. It would have been from a firearm that had been out of military use for 25 years or longer. It would have been a relic from the 1877-78 war with Turkey or some earlier conflict, It would not have fit onto the muzzle of the Mosin-Nagant. On top of this, the lenght of eight inches is unrealisticly short for a triangular bayonet.

Now to the issues of the shape of wound or scars that each shape of bayonet blade would leave:

Triangular bayonet:     ^

Cruciform Bayonet:      +

Star shaped Bayonet:  *

As far as I know star shaped bayonets were not used by the Russian Imperial Army. This is not a commonly used shape for a bayonet blade design.

David

Let me highlight was David has told us:

..A triangular bayonet would seem to be an unlikely weapon. It would have been from a firearm that had been out of military use for 25 years or longer. It would have been a relic from the 1877-78 war with Turkey or some earlier conflict, It would not have fit onto the muzzle of the Mosin-Nagant.<<

Why would Ermakov have a "relic" for his weapon?

So it appears one question of the "make of a bayonet" has merely created more questions than answers.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Book Three:  DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES by William Maples.

Bullets.  Looking for evidence which tells us rifles were used during the execution and not just revolvers:

p. 253

>>in all fourteen bullets were recovered from the grave, along with the remains of one hand grenade detonator.  All the bullets were 7.62, 7.63 or 7.65 mm, about the equivalet of .32 - caliber bullets.  The Russians told us they believed nine of the bullets came from Nagants, four came possibly from a Browning, and one from some other gun, possibly a Mauser."

Marks of  bayonet on bones of any of the nine vicitms found in the mass grave:

p. 254

>>...Another Body, No. 9, had a stab wound in the breastbone that could have been made by a bayonet.<<

#9 body was Trupp.

p. 258

>>...wound probably by a bayonet, through the breastbone from front to back, but I am convinced this particular breastbone does not belong to this set of remains.  For the rest, the robust size of the skeleton agrees well with the description we have of the footman, ....Trupp....<<

So,  if it is not Trupp's breastbone, who's breastbone was Maples looking at.  Over on p. 267 he tells us to whom he thought the breastbone belonged:

>>There is a very good possibility that the bones of the Tsar will be buried without their proper breastbone or arms!  My examination of the remains convinced me that the arms and the banoyet-stabbed breastbone of Body No. 9 in the burial pit, which has been identified as belonging to Trupp, the footman, are reall tose of Body No. 4, the Tsar.<<

So, the only bone which may have a mark of a bayonet,  is Tsar Nicholas II.

Since GD Anastasia/ Maria  and Alexei are missing and their remains have not been found to this date,  we cannot possible know what wounds were inflicted or if any wounds were received by using forensic science which was done on the nine who were found in the mass grave.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Book Four:  THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER by Robert Massie  p. 6:

>>Demidova survived the first fusillade.  Rather than reload, the executioners took rifles from the next room and pursued her with bayonets.<<

>>When she collapsed the enraged murderers pierced her body more than thirty times.<<

AGRBear

[annaanderson]

Please,  can someone give me a source [page number from Kurth?, Lovel?, Massie?, ____?] which tells us the shape of the scar on AA's foot???  It would save some of  time if you know the answer and tell us,  then those of us who do not can go straight to the source/sources.

Thanks.

David,  let me say again, it is a pleasure to read your posts.

AGRBear

It's in Peter Kurth's book and I don't feel like looking up the pg. # right now. But I'll find it later.

[Louis_Charles]

P. 85 in Kurth's book.

[AGRBear]

ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth p. 85:
>>...Harriet von Ratlef had prepared a list of other identifying marks....<<

>>...There were, in addition, the scars that would have been left by the attempt on Anastasia's life:...another that pierced the right foot from top to bottom....<<

No mention of the shape of the wound.

It does tell us that there is someone telling us that the scar in question might have been a stab wound which went through the foot from top to bottom.

AGRBear

This book was mentioned and quoted above.

Thanks, anyway.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Yurovsky's testimony of 1 Feb 1934:

>>They shot the daughters but did not kill them. Then Yermakov resorted to a bayonet, but that did not work either. Finally they killed them by shooting them in the head.<<

Yermakov = Ermakov

In this report it tells us that there should be marks of a bayonet on the bones of Nicholas II's daughters.

Yourvsky doesn't say tthat Ermakov had used a rifle with a bayonet attached.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Yurovsky's statement of 1920 to the Whites:

>>When they tried to finish off one of the girls with bayonets, the bayonet could not pierce the corset."

Yurovsky used the word "bayonets".

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Pavel Medvedev's testinony to the Whites was 21-22 Feb 1919.

Although he was present, he claimed he took no part in the shooting and was left the task of getting the blood cleaned up in the basement room before the truck departed.

>>I walked out into the courtyard enclosed by a tall fense, and I heard the sound of shots before I reached the street.  I immediiately returned to the house....<<


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

I do not have access to the following source mentioned by King and Wilson in the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS:

Strekotin, 1934, TsDOOSO, f.221 op. 2, d. 849

Strekotin was not one of the shooters so how did he know what happen inside the basement room.  Was he by the door watching or was his information all second or third hand?

Wilson and King tell us Strekotin was there, however, he was not one of the shooters.   I mentioned  [Alexander] Strekotin in one of my earlier  post above:

Book Two: THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  by King and Wilson:

p. 302:
>>A collecion of pistols remained on the desk in Yurovsky's office.  Yurovsky was armed with his own Mauser, and a second gun, a Colt; Kudrin, too, had a Colt, as well as a Browning; Nikulin took the other Browning;  Paul Medvedev and four of the other men took the Russian Nagants, while the sixth man took the Smith & Wesson.  Ermakov had a Mauser, along with a Nagant.  Dagerously weighted down with four revolvers, Ermakov's belt sagged, the sight, as Kudrin recalled, so absurd that "we all had to smile at his armed appearance."<<


 p. 302:

>>Alexander Strekotin had gone to get a rifle from the large hall, directly beneath the dining room, when Medvedev appeard, a revolver in his hand.  "Why do you have that?" Strekotin asked.

"We're going to start shooting them soon," he answered, then quickly disappered."<<

Strekotin was not part of the shooting or so we're told.

Haven't found the mention of a rifle/rifles being prepared before the execution mentioned in these two books but I'm not finished reading, yet.

AGRBear

Book Two: THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  by King and Wilson p. 309:

>>Out of bullets, Yurovsky yelled to Ermakov, who turned back to the center of the room, pulling an eight-inch, triangular bayonet from his belt as he stumbled over the growing pile of arms and legs?<<

Bayonet was not attached to a rifle in Penny's interruptation of the murder of Nicholas II and the others.

The knife had not been mention as being part of his weapons which caused his belt earlier on p. 302.

Over on p. 311:

Ermakov continued to cause wounds with his bayonet and there is a description of him trying to kill Anasasia but the knife didn't penetrate her bodice.

Ermakov continued using the bayonet to kill.  His next victim was Alexandra....

I asume these bayonet wounds mentioned are from some forensic report which talks about the bones and the marks which were probably created by a knife/bayonet instead of bullets.  

Let me see,  it's marked "147" so let me go to the back of the book and see the source: Strekotin, 1934, TsDOOSO, f.221 op. 2, d. 849.

AGRBear

Alexander Strekotin's memoirs of 1934  p. 517 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by Wilson and King.

He had a brother Andrei who was a guard, also.

Still looking for a quote which tells us if Strekotin was watching from the door/ window/ ?? or was he just retelling the story as he was told?

AGRBear