Author Topic: The make of a bayanet  (Read 26055 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2005, 11:28:33 AM »
Here is what the CHEKA Kudrin, known also as Michael Medvedev,  p. 311 of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS p. 311 tells:

>>...Kudrin recalled,  "something white moved in the corner." It was Anna Demidova, who had fallen... She tried to get to her feet, but Ermakov, bayonet held high, reached her..."

To avoid the vivid details,  lower on the page,  there is a description of Ermakov driving the bayonet through Nicholas II and pinning him to the floor.  But no name is attached to this.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2005, 11:41:42 AM »
THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by Wilson and King pps. 310 to 311,  Kabanov,  tells about a bayonet being used by Ermakov who tells us that two of the yougnest daughters were still alive.  Ermakov went back to them and with his bayonet  ended their lives.  The two youngests were Maria and Anastasia.

Who was Kabanov?

p. 20:

>>The memories of seven of those involved in the exection also drew on eyewitness experiences...Michael Kabanov..."<<

p. 299-300

King and Wilson tell us the there were two Kabanovs and  on their list as shooters of the eleven.

So Kabanov was telling us what he saw and unlike some of the others who were just repeating someone else's words.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2005, 11:47:50 AM »
Remember: Maples just tells us about only one bayonet mark on all the bones in his book.  In his more detailed report,  does he mention other bones with bayonet marks?

Is Maples report available for me to find and discover if other bones have bayonet marks?

Or, does someone already know the answer?

If there is only one bone, the sternum of Trupp/Nicholas II,  which shows the marks of a bayonet,  then why don't more bones show these same kind of marks if everyone is telling us there were others who suffered blows from Ermakov's bayonet?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

etonexile

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2005, 08:54:15 PM »
And in all these horrible tales of slaughter and carnage...The "Harlequin Romance" set would have us believe that a kind hearted soldier saved someone....yes...sure...highly likely..... ::)

Tania

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2005, 10:58:24 PM »
Now I know where to go and who to ask about Harlequin Romances. You must have quite a selection ?  :D I've yet to read anything of "Harlequin Romances". It's tempting reading I guess, but I rather stick to sound historical facts, and real life issues. But thanks for the tip on where to turn to for romances and as such stories your familiar with.

Tatiana


Quote
And in all these horrible tales of slaughter and carnage...The "Harlequin Romance" set would have us believe that a kind hearted soldier saved someone....yes...sure...highly likely..... ::)


Annie

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2005, 06:10:03 AM »
Much worse than the idea of someone simply being saved is the preposterous notion that she could survive a 2,800 mile cart trip through mud, unpopulated areas with no roads to 'avoid the reds'. taking well over a year, with no medical care for those mortal wounds, no food, no money, shelter, etc. That is not even a fantasy, it's just plain ridiculous. I bet when AA made that story up she had not measured just how long the journey from Ekaterinburg to Romania was.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2005, 10:28:16 AM »
Dispite Yurovsky and other others telling us that a bayonet was used to kill more than one of the eleven, there is only one bone, the sterum of Trupp/Nicholas II which shows a mark of a bayonet.

Since the topic of the journey as described by Anna Anderson is on another thread which Annie created,  I think it's best we head over there if you'd posts where I and others have explain how the journey from Ekaterinburg to Rumania was possible, and, of course, I've mentioned the fact that we do not know what kind of wounds GD Anastasia had OR if she had any wounds.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1108091391;start=0#0

This subject is gory but that is what occurs when the subject is about bayonets being used in an execution and evidence needs to be presented.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2005, 10:49:47 AM »
One hates to add to the gore, but it might have been possible to use a bayonet without hitting a bone. Alexei was described as being stabbed over and over with an 8" bayonet. His body is missing. Ermakov used the same bayonet to stab Marie, but Yurovsky noted that it would not pierce her bodice, so she was finished off with a shot. The same thing was repeated with Anastasia, who also finally was dispatched by a shot to the head, after the bayonet failed to pierce her bodice. Demidova's hands were sliced to ribbons as she attempted to defend herself, but as has been pointed out, most of the hand bones were missing from the gravesite. King and Wilson then simply mention that she was killed. By a gunshot? Who knows. A great many of Demidova's bones were missing at the exhumation, including her hands.

None of the testimony describes the Grand Duchess Anastasia as being bayoneted in the foot. Most of this was taken from the description of the murders in The Fate of the Romanovs. They don't include any other person as wielding a bayonet except Ermakov, and they describe it as something he carried by hand, not as at the end of a rifle. This makes sense, since all of the recovered bullets came from hand guns of some kind, and the use of a rifle in the enclosed space of the cellar would have been problematic.

The level of violence and sheer brutality in the room was sickening.
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Rachael89

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2005, 11:18:03 AM »
You're right the details are awful, it's only when you read what happneded that you realise how horrible it must of been for them  :-/ .

This is going to sound horrible once again but whose skull was it that didn't have a bullet wound? I've heard that Yurovsky finished off all the GD's with a bullet but one of them didn't have a bullet hole in their skulll...curioser and curioser...but still they may be misinformtaion there are so many variations of the murder room reports.

Once again sorry to be so gruesome.... (Etonexile you have me doing the little dots now  ;D!)

Rachael

etonexile

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2005, 11:36:24 AM »
Quote
Now I know where to go and who to ask about Harlequin Romances. You must have quite a selection ?  :D I've yet to read anything of "Harlequin Romances". It's tempting reading I guess, but I rather stick to sound historical facts, and real life issues. But thanks for the tip on where to turn to for romances and as such stories your familiar with.

Tatiana

"Harlequin Romances" are a code expression for light reading for light minds...as you must be well aware. Sound historical facts are most important in these sights....as you might be aware. I'm glad that you don't stoop to the level of the HR's...and that your mother keeps them well away from your tender mind.....




Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2005, 11:55:14 AM »
Quote


Chart of the bullet holes found in the bones.

This is being discussed over on another thread but I thought while I had it copied,  I'd place it here, too.

AGRBear


No. 7 skeleton, Alexandra, is missing from their chart.

I'll go get the names of each of those shown.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2005, 12:01:08 PM »
Quote

..[in part]....

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp




AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2005, 12:10:31 PM »
Quote
One hates to add to the gore, but it might have been possible to use a bayonet without hitting a bone. Alexei was described as being stabbed over and over with an 8" bayonet. His body is missing. Ermakov used the same bayonet to stab Marie, but Yurovsky noted that it would not pierce her bodice, so she was finished off with a shot. The same thing was repeated with Anastasia, who also finally was dispatched by a shot to the head, after the bayonet failed to pierce her bodice. Demidova's hands were sliced to ribbons as she attempted to defend herself, but as has been pointed out, most of the hand bones were missing from the gravesite. King and Wilson then simply mention that she was killed. By a gunshot? Who knows. A great many of Demidova's bones were missing at the exhumation, including her hands.

None of the testimony describes the Grand Duchess Anastasia as being bayoneted in the foot. Most of this was taken from the description of the murders in The Fate of the Romanovs. They don't include any other person as wielding a bayonet except Ermakov, and they describe it as something he carried by hand, not as at the end of a rifle. This makes sense, since all of the recovered bullets came from hand guns of some kind, and the use of a rifle in the enclosed space of the cellar would have been problematic.

The level of violence and sheer brutality in the room was sickening.


When the bullets bounced off  [ didn't penatrate] the chest area of Alexandara and her daughters,  real panic might have occured.   For those who were supersitious/ believed the Royal Family were chosen by God,  this must have rocked them make on their heels.  And,  it seems they would be having thoughts that God was indeed protecting these women.  But,  Ermakov was't rocked back on his heels,  he was filled with too much hatred and charged with his bayonet, which, as Louis_Charles suggests, which may not have penetrated these jewels either.  An, so the guns were aimed at their heads.  [See the chart].   The one female who was not wearing jewels was the Demidov.

Maples, however, believes the sternum which shows the marks belonged to a man, Nicholas II.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Annie

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2005, 12:17:25 PM »
Quote

Mapes, however, believes the sernum which shows the marks belonged to a man, Nicholas II.

AGRBear


You mean Maples, and sternum?

Quote
posted by Louis_Charles

None of the testimony describes the Grand Duchess Anastasia as being bayoneted in the foot.


True, when you're trying to kill somebody, the foot is not a very lethal blow, or the most likely place to hit.

etonexile

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Re: The make of a bayanet
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2005, 12:17:43 PM »
It was all just so horrible...I must say...I am more than just a little insulted and annoyed by those who suggest that a kindly soldier stepped forth from the fray and offered protection to any of the party....vulgar words here*....NO ONE SURVIVED...grow up people.... ::)