The make of a bayanet

[AGRBear]

The parts in black are the bones missing according to Kleir and Mingay:



They are listed as:

1. Anna Demidova    2. Evgeny Botkin  3. GD Olga Nikolaevna


AGRBear

For those intersted in the bones which were missing, here is one set of diagrams.   This one has Demidova and her sernum bones are missing.

Yes, Annie,  my typing fingers missed the "l" in Maples and "t" in sternum".  Thank you for pointing this out to me.  I will correct.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

...[in part]...

True, when you're trying to kill somebody, the foot is not a very lethal blow, or the most likely place to hit.

In an earlier post I didnt mention how I thought it could have occured:

...[in part]....
Not every thrust of a bayonet [on or off a rifle] is going to strike it's intended mark with full force.

Would it be wrong to assume that a bayonet stab to a foot would have been cause by the intentional blow, say to the chest area where the jewels would have prevented penetration of the blade, that had glanced off and downward?  

I assume the victim, in this case, GD Anastasia,  was NOT in her barefeet and the blade would have had to have gone through leather.... A barrier which would have needed a harder thrust, I think, but may be wrong.

So,  if the blow did not due anymore damage then a slight wound, it may have left a "^" or "+" or a "*"  instead of a full blown wound.



....AGRBear

There is written that the bayonet, according to Anna Anderson, pierced her foot and showed a mark at the top of her boot and where it continued through the foot leaving a scar at the bottom of her foot.

See one of my posts above for sources.

AGRBear

[etonexile]

And...the face of FS/AA was soooooo pree-tee after the smashing of the gun butts against their faces...If only these facial wonder-workers had been in the employe of Elizabeth Arden or Estee Lauder........

[Louis_Charles]

When the bullets bounced off Alexandara and her daughters,  real panic must have occured.   For those who were supersitious/ believed the Royal Family were chosen by God,  this must have rocked them make on their heels.  And,  it seems they would be having thoughts that God was indeed protecting these women.  But,  Ermakov was't rocked back on his heels,  he was filled with too much hatred and charged with his bayonet, which, as Louis_Charles suggests, which may not have penetrated these jewels either.  An, so the guns were aimed at their heads.  [See the chart].   The one female who was not wearing jewels was the Demidov.

Maples, however, believes the sternum which shows the marks belonged to a man, Nicholas II.

AGRBear

Bear,

I doubt that it was a frightening or religious moment for any of the executioners. They were, after all, able to finish the job. In the testimonies that I read in King/Wilson and The Fall of the Romanovs I don't remember a great deal of awe or religious stirrings.

Apparently Demidova sat up shouting "God has saved me! Thank God!" At which point all of the brave band turned upon her and finished her off.

The men with scruples about killing defenceless women and children had recused themselves from the assignment.

The only bayonet mentioned was carried by Ermakov, I think, and he does not mention stabbing Anastasia in the foot. I must say that given the level of brutality and violence described --- Anastasia was essentially singled out after the initial shootings --- I wonder if there were enough scars of any kind on Andersen's body to make her claim credible.

Regards,

Simon

[Elisabeth]

Etonexile, that was in dubious taste. AGR Bear, Alexandra's ribs also showed signs of damage from a possible bayonet blow. Your information always seems highly selective. You always leave out something important and telling.

It seems to me, from the forensic evidence, that Ermakov and/or others went around with their bayonets afterwards and "tested" the corpses to see if they were still in fact living bodies. Because otherwise there's no accounting for Alexandra's apparent wound(s); she's not described as being stabbed in any of the eyewitness accounts.

But this makes it even more unlikely that someone could have survived the murder room that night. If all the grand duchesses were finished off by head shots (there's no trace of a bullet wound in Maria's skull, but most of her skull is missing, so that means nothing), and then the Bolsheviks went around stabbing the corpses, "just to make sure," then the idea that Anastasia or her brother might have survived the carnage is absolutely unbelievable.  

[etonexile]

Etonexile, that was in dubious taste. AGR Bear, Alexandra's ribs also showed signs of damage from a possible bayonet blow. Your information always seems highly selective. You always leave out something important and telling.

It seems to me, from the forensic evidence, that Ermakov and/or others went around with their bayonets afterwards and "tested" the corpses to see if they were still in fact living bodies. Because otherwise there's no accounting for Alexandra's apparent wound(s); she's not described as being stabbed in any of the eyewitness accounts.

But this makes it even more unlikely that someone could have survived the murder room that night. If all the grand duchesses were finished off by head shots (there's no trace of a bullet wound in Maria's skull, but most of her skull is missing, so that means nothing), and then the Bolsheviks went around stabbing the corpses, "just to make sure," then the idea that Anastasia or her brother might have survived the carnage is absolutely unbelievable.  

not..."unbelievable" by some...unbelievable...!!!

[rskkiya]

And...the face of FS/AA was soooooo pree-tee after the smashing of the gun butts against their faces...If only these facial wonder-workers had been in the employe of Elizabeth Arden or Estee Lauder........

***I must agree with EE's  point ...and I think his statement absolutely valid! ****
    Even IF we try to imagine that 'someone' riddled with blows/bullets and a smashed in face somehow MAGICALLY was rescued or escaped - without massive doses of antibiotics and serious medical treatment - survival is not an option! It's scarely conceivable TODAY in a western city let alone 89 years ago in the back of beyond!
   Consider, blood poisoning - shock - trauma - massive internal bleeding and severe organ damage! Not the sort of thing that a nap and a bandage will mend!

Actually it's this topic that is getting 'dubious' and surreal ... I think that continuing to try to argue that without the help of MAGIC or Alien Intervention anyone could survive is "mental masterbation"!

    I am sorry if that sounds to be too rude a phrase - but it seems accurate to me!

despairing
rs

[Forum Admin]

It seems that some mythology is creeping back here and we need to return back to the first hand sources.  What is occurring in this thread is what I saw referred to as a "closed loop of repeated literary sources". ie people stating things as fact that were written as theory or speculation by persons not there.

Bullets did not "bounce off" anyone. They did not penetrate the diamond quilted chemises, so did not kill the wearer, but certainly didn't 'bounce off anyone". Demidova survived the initial volley of shots because she was carrying the Empress' pillow which was also full of diamonds and it also stopped bullets from killing her.

Once the initial shots had been fired, they then set upon all those who showed signs of life.  Now don't forget this is a VERY small room with anywhere from 6-12 killers in it at the time and the bodies of more people lying on the floor. We know from the consensus of the first hand reports that most of the shooters carried revolvers. Only 2 at most rifles were said to be in the room.  We know that they were used for sure. BUT stop and look rationally at the situation. A man of average size (say 5'10) is standing over a female's body on the floor thrusting a rifle bayonet down into her to kill her. At least one other man in the room (Yurovsky) is putting point blank pistol shots into people still alive. OK? to even discuss a wound ONLY on the foot of ANYONE in that room WITHOUT SUBSTANTIAL WOUNDS ELSEWHERE ON THE BODY is LUDICROUS AT BEST.

[AGRBear]

The topic started about the make of the Russian bayonet which could have caused the triangluar shaped scar on AA's foot.

David gave us the information.

What I've added is information showing the possible use of a bayonet used on one body found in the mass grave. [Elisabeth has added evidence there were other bones but let me talk about that in my next post,] Since GD Anastasia's body is missing,  we do not know what kinds of wounds she suffered.

Yes, it is true that the majority of you believe that it was impossible for anyone to have survived these kinds of attacks.

What I am looking for is evidence that Ermakov bayonet left marks on the bones which prove one was used.

I have given a long list of sources such as Maples comment in his book and this one bone which was a sternum of  Nicholas II, which contradicts the Russians who claim this sternum belonged to Trupp.  I have given testimonies of eyewitnesses telling about Ermakov's use of his bayonet.....

Not once have I suggested that GD Anastasia survived on this thread.  Nor have I suggested anyone else survived on this thread.  This topic, as far as I know, is just about the make of the bayonet/bayonets used on the victims and what kind would have left a triangular marke "^" on AA's foot if indeed it had been a bayonet, which we don't know and have no way of proving this is what occured.  Read Louis Charles post.

I have also asked for help in this search since  I do not own all the books written about the Romanovs,  I don't think that is to much to ask.  Like I've said,  I just have the one, Maples' book in which he  mentions the one bone with the mark of a bayonet on the one bone, the sternum.

So, please,  view this topic as having been split into two directions:  (1) What kind of bayonet would cause a triangular wound, the kind some say AA had; and (2)  What evidence is there that a bayonet/bayonets were used on the nine bodies found in the mass grave and the possible use on the two missing bodies.

I realize I may have confused some of you because I took this topic in a different direction then it may have been intended.  To me,  if those who do believe AA was GD Anastasia,  then they need to show this triangular shaped bayonet was used that night.  And,  David has explained what was being used and what was not being used by the Russians in 1918.  And,  I added sources of testimonies saying Ermakov was  using a bayonet that was not attached to a rifle.  I was also trying to take in the forensic evidence as well and prove that a bayonet/bayonets were used.

As to the topic if AA was GD Anastasia,  I think there are plenty of threads where that topic can continue.

There is no need to stir this pot and get another locked down thread just because we're talking about bayonets being used on tne nine victims and that AA claimed to have a scar from a bayonet.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

Etonexile, that was in dubious taste. AGR Bear, Alexandra's ribs also showed signs of damage from a possible bayonet blow. Your information always seems highly selective. You always leave out something important and telling.

It seems to me, from the forensic evidence, that Ermakov and/or others went around with their bayonets afterwards and "tested" the corpses to see if they were still in fact living bodies. Because otherwise there's no accounting for Alexandra's apparent wound(s); she's not described as being stabbed in any of the eyewitness accounts.

But this makes it even more unlikely that someone could have survived the murder room that night. If all the grand duchesses were finished off by head shots (there's no trace of a bullet wound in Maria's skull, but most of her skull is missing, so that means nothing), and then the Bolsheviks went around stabbing the corpses, "just to make sure," then the idea that Anastasia or her brother might have survived the carnage is absolutely unbelievable.  

Since I asked for more information:

Remember: Maples just tells us about only one bayonet mark on all the bones in his book.  In his more detailed report,  does he mention other bones with bayonet marks?

Is Maples report available for me to find and discover if other bones have bayonet marks?

Or, does someone already know the answer?

If there is only one bone, the sternum of Trupp/Nicholas II,  which shows the marks of a bayonet,  then why don't more bones show these same kind of marks if everyone is telling us there were others who suffered blows from Ermakov's bayonet?

AGRBear

How can Elisabeth or anyone else accused me of being selective in my findings???    Didn't I ask for help in finding more information?  And,  now, Elisabeth has given us addition information.  She has just told us that Alexandra's ribs showed signs of stabbing.   Could you, Elisabeth, please, tell us  your source?    I will be more than happy to find, copy  and post it and if I don't have it in one of my books,  maybe some who does will post it for us.

It doesn't matter to me what the results of these findings will bring, so, if someone else has more evidence about other bones showing marks of a stabbing,  please,  PLEASE,  post them.

The topic of survival can be found on other threads.  This thread is just about the use and make of the bayonet/bayonets used on the nine victims found in the mass grave and the possible use of bayonet/bayonets on the missing two victims, AND, what kind of bayonet mark would have made the triangular scars found on AA's foot.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

The following are:

7. Alexandra Fedorovna  8. Ivan Kharitonov   9.  Aleksei Trupp

From what I can tell from these diagrams,  there wasn't much of Alexanda's sternum or rib cage found.   Am I reading this incorrectly?  Is the diagram incorrect?

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

But Bear,
The point of your discussion is this: AA claimed a bayonet wound on her foot. fine, but MY point is IF a bayonet wound was on her foot, WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE WOUNDS on her body? They aren't there.  SO, since AA was NOT AN, it is indeed mental masturbation to discuss the bayonet in the first place, as it adds nothing to the discussion about "survivors", right?

NOW if you want to actually delve into the events of that night, then go over to the "Last Days" section and start an appropriate thread about the events of that night as re: usage of bayonets.

See, once again Bear, you become "slippery" and first say one thing and then another. IF AA was NOT AN, then a discussion of bayonet wounds from the events in Ipatiev House on AA is pointless as pure fiction.

[AGRBear]

But Bear,
The point of your discussion is this: AA claimed a bayonet wound on her foot. fine, but MY point is IF a bayonet wound was on her foot, WHERE ARE THE REST OF THE WOUNDS on her body? They aren't there.  SO, since AA was NOT AN, it is indeed mental masturbation to discuss the bayonet in the first place, as it adds nothing to the discussion about "survivors", right?

NOW if you want to actually delve into the events of that night, then go over to the "Last Days" section and start an appropriate thread about the events of that night as re: usage of bayonets.

See, once again Bear, you become "slippery" and first say one thing and then another. IF AA was NOT AN, then a discussion of bayonet wounds from the events in Ipatiev House on AA is pointless as pure fiction.

The discussion about the one scar on the foot of AA and the make of the bayonet  is not mine.  I did NOT create the subject.  Who did?  Annanderson.

In all of the books about Anna Anderson, it is stated that Anna Anderson had a scar on her right foot in the shape of a star. Experts who looked at the scar confirmed that it coincided exactly in size and shape to a Bolshevik bayanet. If you don't believe in Anna Anderson's claims, how do you wonder how she managed to get this scar? Who do you think stabbed her in the foot? I'm interested in hearing your theories.

I have delved into the events of that night to see if a bayonet which would have caused a triangular scar was used that night.

How can one exist without the other?  Let me state it another way.  How could AA, who was claiming to be GD Anastasia,  have such a scar if this kind of bayonet was not used that night?

Why do you continue to believe I am being "slippery".  What am I being slippery about?  Do you think I have some hidden meaning between the lines?   I don't.  FA,  I am not your enemy.

I don't believe AA was GD Anastasia but some people do,  I cannot stop them from thinking what they do.  I can provide information which gives people sources to look and read for themselves why I and others, like yourself,  have come to this conclusion.

If someone thinks AA's scar is from a bayonet thrust through her foot that night in the Ipatiev House,  then why not provide information about the bayonet/ bayonets, testimony and forensic evidence.

Quite frankly,  I don't understand why you think I am doing anything else but what I've just stated.

AGRBear
 

[Forum Admin]

Simple,
BECAUSE annaanderson's entire agenda is that AA WAS AN. PERIOD.
Logic dictates simply that if AA was NOT AN, then there IS NO POINT TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION.

[Elisabeth]

And,  now, Elisabeth has given us addition information.  She has just told us that Alexandra's ribs showed signs of stabbing.   Could you, Elisabeth, please, tell us  your source?

Gladly, AGR Bear. It's not exactly hard to find. Check Robert K. Massie's The Romanovs: The Final Chapter, p. 62:

"The easiest body to identify - labeled by the Russians as Body No. 7 - was that of a middle-aged woman whose ribs showed possible signs of damage from bayonet thrusts. What immediately caught the eye and attention of Dr. Levine was the elaborate and beautiful dental work in this skull [...] Seeing this work, Levine and Maples pronounced this skull and these remains as belonging to the Empress Alexandra."