Class-breaching marriages

[ilyala]

no i haven't... i don't order on internet cause i don't own a credit card... and i can't find it in shops

currently i'm reading 'history of the popes'

[jehan]

Frances Brandon and her stepmother Catherine Willoughby both married servants!

It's worse than that with Frances Brandon!  Not only did she marry her much younger horse master, but she was already pregnant at the time, and it was within weeks of her first husband's (and daughter Jane Grey's) executions!

[bell_the_cat]

I've often wondered whether Frances' second marriage was a way of saving her skin - it looked so tacky that it effectively removed her from the succession and therefore out of the firing line. Mary was obviously pleased about the match, as she invited Frances to her coronation.

He seems to have been a perfectly agreeable young man - they had at least two children, who sadly died as babies.

[umigon]

They had two daughters named Elizabeth, the first one born and dead on November 20th, 1554, the second one was born July 16th, 1555 (premature) and died February 7th, 1556. Their third child was a stillborn son, probably on September 1557.

[Prince_Lieven]

I've often wondered whether Frances' second marriage was a way of saving her skin - it looked so tacky that it effectively removed her from the succession and therefore out of the firing line. Mary was obviously pleased about the match, as she invited Frances to her coronation.

He seems to have been a perfectly agreeable young man - they had at least two children, who sadly died as babies.

That's a good theory Bell. Most class breaching marriages were made for love, but some weren't - this one for example (possibly, anyway) and, as I said, Margaret of Salisbury's may well have been a way for Henry VII to neutralise her.

Presumable Jane Dormer's marriage with de Feria was a love match?

[bell_the_cat]

Presumable Jane Dormer's marriage with de Feria was a love match?

I'm not sure Jane Dormer was that "common" compared to Feria - he wasn't royal.

According to this link which I can't read very well (it's in spanish), it looks like it wasn't an "old family"
http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/f/feria.htm

Jane's family were pretty upper class it seems, but not nobles.

Let's not forget that there were relatively few noblemen in Tudor times - there were no dukes at all after the execution of Norfolk in 1572 for example. So even plain sirs were quite high up in the pecking order. It was really with James I that the number began to rise - he sold titles to make money.

Was it a love match? If it happened after Mary's death, I would say most definitely!

[Kimberly]

Just as an aside especially for Liam...Jane Dormer's grandmother was a Woodville.

[Prince_Lieven]

So marrying 'up' was in her blood.  

[Kimberly]

Ooh and her daddy..Sir William Dormer was "engaged" to Jane Seymour according to some sources

[bell_the_cat]

Ooh and her daddy..Sir William Dormer was "engaged" to Jane Seymour according to some sources

lucky escape!  

[Kimberly]

Miaoow   ( with you on that one)

[Alianore]

Oooh, just discovered this interesting thread!  

The strangest class-breaching marriage I can think from the Middle Ages is Thomas of Brotherton and Alice Hales.  He was was the son of Edward I by Marguerite of France (so, the son of one king and the nephew of another), and Alice's father was a coroner!!  Bizarre.  The date of marriage isn't known, but between 1316 and 1320.  I presume it took place after his mother's death in May 1318 - I don't think she would have been amused.  Edward II, his half-brother, didn't fine Thomas for marrying without permission, so presumably it took place with his say-so??

[Prince_Lieven]

Thanks Alianore, that one escaped my notice!   Maybe Edward gave his permission because he didn't want Thomas to marry an heiress and increase his power?  

[Alianore]

Thanks Alianore, that one escaped my notice!   Maybe Edward gave his permission because he didn't want Thomas to marry an heiress and increase his power?  

That's an excellent theory.  I've often wondered about this odd marriage.  Ed didn't arrange a marriage at all for his younger half-brother Edmund, who married Roger Mortimer's widowed cousin Margaret Wake in Paris in 1325, to cement their alliance.  Edmund was 24 then, quite old not to have had a marriage arranged.  I also wonder why their mother didn't arrange their marriages, as they were nearly 18 and 17 when she died.  I don't know, I just have a feeling there was something 'wrong' with Thomas of Brotherton.  He married and produced kids, but there's something very odd about him to me..........

[Prince_Lieven]

That's an excellent theory.

Thanks!

I've often wondered about this odd marriage.  Ed didn't arrange a marriage at all for his younger half-brother Edmund, who married Roger Mortimer's widowed cousin Margaret Wake in Paris in 1325, to cement their alliance.  Edmund was 24 then, quite old not to have had a marriage arranged.  I also wonder why their mother didn't arrange their marriages, as they were nearly 18 and 17 when she died.  I don't know, I just have a feeling there was something 'wrong' with Thomas of Brotherton.  He married and produced kids, but there's something very odd about him to me..........

I might be horribly wrong here, but I always thought that in the 1300s it was the King, rather than the Queen, that generally managed the children's marriages. Maybe that explains why Marguerite had no plans for her boys.