Author Topic: Class-breaching marriages  (Read 14487 times)

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Alianore

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2006, 11:06:12 AM »
Not sure, really - I read somewhere that it was the queen's responsibility, but......maybe not.  Certainly Ed II wanted to arrange his own son's marriage to a princess of Aragon, and was very opposed to the Hainault alliance.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2006, 11:07:39 AM »
We need a third opinion.  ;D ;D
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Offline jehan

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2006, 12:15:59 PM »
Quote
Not sure, really - I read somewhere that it was the queen's responsibility, but......maybe not.  Certainly Ed II wanted to arrange his own son's marriage to a princess of Aragon, and was very opposed to the Hainault alliance.



I would assume that the responsibility of arranging of marriages depended on the relationship of the royal parents and the political concerns of the time.  I doubt that there was any firm list of the obligations of every king and queen!  Each marriage/relationship was different.
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ilyala

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2006, 01:17:27 PM »
maybe edward simply did not care who his brothers married. there was a huge age difference and i doubt they were ever very close. as for their mother, as you pointed out, the boys were 17 and 18 and, unlike girls, could have married at whatever age, without the danger of spinsterhood. they weren't in line for the throne, so they weren't required to have any heirs, why arrange a marriage?

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2006, 01:38:31 PM »
They were in line for the throne before Edward's on children were born, surely?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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ilyala

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2006, 01:41:08 PM »
yes but edward iii was born in 1312.  both boys were very young at the time, too young for marriage. by the time they were old enough to be married, the king had other children and i'm sure they lost their importance. which i'm not sure they had in the beginning, because i don't think edward was too fond of having too (very much) younger brothers endangering his (not so popular) rule

Alianore

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2006, 01:45:17 PM »
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maybe edward simply did not care who his brothers married. there was a huge age difference and i doubt they were ever very close. as for their mother, as you pointed out, the boys were 17 and 18 and, unlike girls, could have married at whatever age, without the danger of spinsterhood. they weren't in line for the throne, so they weren't required to have any heirs, why arrange a marriage?


Thomas of Brotherton was heir to the English throne from 1307 to 1312, and until 1316 when Ed II's second son John was born, only the future Ed III was ahead of him in the succession.  Given how many children died back then, there was at least a remote chance that he could become king of England.  
Anyway, that's missing the point.  Of course they were 'required' to have heirs - all aristocratic men needed heirs to pass their estates on to.  That was the whole basis of wealth and status in society.
As for the lack of 'danger of spinsterhood', most royal men got married very young.  Ed II was betrothed to Isabella at 17 at the latest, and would have certainly got married younger if Isabella hadn't been so much younger than him. Ed I, Ed III and Richard II were all married at 15.  Ed II's cousin Thomas of Lancaster was 15 or 16.
Why arrange a marriage?  For the same reason as practically all royal marriages were arranged: for political alliances. That's the puzzling thing about the marriages of Ed II's brothers - why wasn't Ed bothered about making an alliance with, say, Aragon or Portugal or anyone else who could be a potential ally against France?  Why didn't he marry them to English earls' daughters, to create allies among his hostile nobility?  Whether he was close to his brothers or not is irrelevant.  If Ed didn't care who his relatives married, he was one of the very few kings who didn't.

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2006, 01:49:01 PM »
This'll sound mean . . . but maybe he wasn't clever enough to take such things into account.  :o
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Alianore

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2006, 01:54:10 PM »
Well, I genuinely don't think that Ed was stupid, but given how he behaved with Gaveston and Despenser, maybe he really didn't realise the importance of building up alliances.  I wonder how he felt when both brothers turned against him in 1326?  Although I'm sure they weren't close, that must have been a painful betrayal.

ilyala

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2006, 01:55:39 PM »
or maybe he simply didn't trust them enough to use them like that... he didn't trust that they would strengthen any alliance, because for that he needed some loyal brothers. edmund did support isabella, didn't he? that says something.

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2006, 01:56:29 PM »
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Well, I genuinely don't think that Ed was stupid, but given how he behaved with Gaveston and Despenser, maybe he really didn't realise the importance of building up alliances.  I wonder how he felt when both brothers turned against him in 1326?  Although I'm sure they weren't close, that must have been a painful betrayal.


Yes, that's putting it better than I did.  ;) As for the betrayel, well, I'm sure it hurt, but not unusual in royal families.  ;D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Alianore

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2006, 02:00:31 PM »
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or maybe he simply didn't trust them enough to use them like that... he didn't trust that they would strengthen any alliance, because for that he needed some loyal brothers. edmund did support isabella, didn't he? that says something.


Edmund screwed up big time in Gascony and almost single-handedly caused a war between England and France.  I think he didn't dare go back to England and face Despenser, so he went to Paris and allied himself with Isa and Mortimer.  However, he wrote to Ed assuring him that he wasn't working against Ed's interests (hmmmm.....)   ;D   It's possible that he just wanted to overthrow the Despensers, not his brother.  Of course, he was judicially murdered in 1330 for trying to rescue his (dead?) brother - a fit of conscience, perhaps?
BTW ilyala, thanks for posting a comment on my blog!   :D

Alianore

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2006, 02:01:35 PM »
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Yes, that's putting it better than I did.  ;) As for the betrayel, well, I'm sure it hurt, but not unusual in royal families.  ;D


Hehehe.  More the norm than the exception...... ;D

ilyala

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2006, 02:04:40 PM »
you're welcome :)

most likely edmund wanted to get rid of the despensers, as opposed to also getting rid of edward. although the reason seems kind of childish

Alianore

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Re: Class-breaching marriages
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2006, 01:04:00 AM »
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you're welcome :)

most likely edmund wanted to get rid of the despensers, as opposed to also getting rid of edward. although the reason seems kind of childish


Yeah, Edmund wasn't the sharpest tool in the box..... ;) I'm sure all the others knew perfectly well they were going to depose Ed - not sure he did!   :D