Count and Countess de Chambord

[Eric_Lowe]

Indeed...He might have made a good king...

[Norbert]

I think Burgoyne is teasing us ;-)

[nom de plume]

Well said ! It was a shaky throne. I said Marie Therese was responsible to moud him into amore conservative than liberal prince that might handle the challenges of the nineteen century. For eample, Alfonso XII was sent to progessive England to learn about demoracy and of course military training. Chambord should have a liberal traing to take over when Naploeon III fell. Instead he wanted to return to the trappings of the old regime. I saw the hand of Marie Therese in that. Early education does effect the charecter of the person. I agree that the Polish thing is rubbish.

Henri did not have a throne, shaky or otherwise.  He could have had quite a good throne but he chose to refuse the terms under which it was offered to him. 

I wouldn’t call Marie Therese d’Angouleme’s wish to secure a Polish bride for Henri rubbish.  It would have been better for the Bourbons to go out in a blaze of glory rather than slowly fade away. 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there’s only one way to blame Marie Therese d’Angouleme for the fact that Henri's actions meant that he deserved to be buried with donkey farts, so to speak.  I’ll leave it to you to decide whether it’s a good way.  Without further ado:

THE PRISONER OF FROHSDORF

When Marie Therese d’Angouleme was on her deathbed, her niece by marriage, the younger Marie Therese, was her constant companion.  The elder Marie Therese had endured many sorrows.  One of the greatest crosses she’d had to bear was the burden of raising her nephew Henri.  His strong will, independent spirit, and lusty interest in chambermaids, barmaids, laundresses, shopgirls, and so forth, got on her last nerve.  She’d spent decades quashing his free will and molding him into her vision of a respectable exiled king of France.  She’d even forced him to renounce his true love, a hot-to-trot Russian Grand Duchess, and marry the younger Marie Therese, who shared her iron will, determination to live in the long dead past, and deadly dull personality.  Despite the best efforts of the two Marie Thereses, his independent streak continued to manifest itself. 

The two Marie Thereses feared that Henri would flamboyantly indulge his sensual appetites and do other things that would disgrace the Bourbon name once there was only one Marie Therese to keep him in line.  The younger Marie Therese sadly said that she’d seen Henri reading a newspaper that evening.  They realized that Henri, like the mice who play when the cat’s away, had climbed Frohsdorf’s gates and had gone out in search of newspapers and, almost certainly, disreputable feminine company.  After much reflection and a few racking coughs, the elder Marie Therese mournfully said: “Heaven doesn’t always make the right men kings.” 
       
The younger Marie Therese recognized the signal for their Emergency Disaster Plan and grimly agreed to put it into action.  She was small but she was mighty: when Henri came in to say goodnight, she whacked him over the head with a marble bust of Louis XIV and knocked him unconscious.  She then rolled him up in a carpet and dragged him to the cellar where she locked him in a soundproof cell.  She didn’t have an iron mask; such a thing was too old-fashioned even for her as well as too hard to come by.  She did have white flags: lots and lots of them.  She cut holes in one for his eyes, nose and mouth, wrapped it snugly around his head and fastened it into place with a dog collar and a small lock forged by Louis XVI.  Her next step was to sneak outside to the stables, where she gave a distinctive whistle. One of Henri’s numerous penurious illegitimate half-brothers, who had been working as a stablehand, stepped forward out of the gloom. She smuggled him into the house and helped him transform himself into Henri’s double.  In exchange for all the food he could eat – which was quite a lot, for he’d inherited the ravenous Bourbon appetite – Faux Henri presented himself to the world as a diehard reactionary who never did or said anything without the approbation of one or both Marie Thereses.  Faux Henri didn’t have a single twinge of conscience about Vrai Henri, who’d condemned him to the stables instead of treating him like family.  Faux Henri and the younger Marie Therese never did anything that the elder Marie Therese wouldn’t have applauded, with one exception.  Believing that it would blow Faux Henri’s cover, they changed the epitaph on her tomb, which she’d wanted to have inscribed as follows:

"O ye people who pass by on the road, stop and see if there is any sorrow like unto my sorrow: my uncles were pinheads, my husband was a pinhead, my brother-in-law was a pinhead, my sister-in-law was a pinhead, and my nephew Henri was the biggest pinhead of them all." 
 
Vrai Henri lived out his days in his lonely cell with a tennis ball, which he called Wilson, for company.  The younger Marie Therese was sometimes tempted to let him out but he habitually spoiled things for himself by telling Wilson heretical things like this: “Louis XIV spent too much money on himself.  He should have been thinking about the welfare of the average Joe in the street rather than his gloire.”

FINIS

[Pommery]

Well said ! It was a shaky throne. I said Marie Therese was responsible to moud him into amore conservative than liberal prince that might handle the challenges of the nineteen century. For eample, Alfonso XII was sent to progessive England to learn about demoracy and of course military training. Chambord should have a liberal traing to take over when Naploeon III fell. Instead he wanted to return to the trappings of the old regime. I saw the hand of Marie Therese in that. Early education does effect the charecter of the person. I agree that the Polish thing is rubbish.

Henri did not have a throne, shaky or otherwise.  He could have had quite a good throne but he chose to refuse the terms under which it was offered to him. 

I wouldn’t call Marie Therese d’Angouleme’s wish to secure a Polish bride for Henri rubbish.  It would have been better for the Bourbons to go out in a blaze of glory rather than slowly fade away. 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there’s only one way to blame Marie Therese d’Angouleme for the fact that Henri's actions meant that he deserved to be buried with donkey farts, so to speak.  I’ll leave it to you to decide whether it’s a good way.  Without further ado:

THE PRISONER OF FROHSDORF

When Marie Therese d’Angouleme was on her deathbed, her niece by marriage, the younger Marie Therese, was her constant companion.  The elder Marie Therese had endured many sorrows.  One of the greatest crosses she’d had to bear was the burden of raising her nephew Henri.  His strong will, independent spirit, and lusty interest in chambermaids, barmaids, laundresses, shopgirls, and so forth, got on her last nerve.  She’d spent decades quashing his free will and molding him into her vision of a respectable exiled king of France.  She’d even forced him to renounce his true love, a hot-to-trot Russian Grand Duchess, and marry the younger Marie Therese, who shared her iron will, determination to live in the long dead past, and deadly dull personality.  Despite the best efforts of the two Marie Thereses, his independent streak continued to manifest itself. 

The two Marie Thereses feared that Henri would flamboyantly indulge his sensual appetites and do other things that would disgrace the Bourbon name once there was only one Marie Therese to keep him in line.  The younger Marie Therese sadly said that she’d seen Henri reading a newspaper that evening.  They realized that Henri, like the mice who play when the cat’s away, had climbed Frohsdorf’s gates and had gone out in search of newspapers and, almost certainly, disreputable feminine company.  After much reflection and a few racking coughs, the elder Marie Therese mournfully said: “Heaven doesn’t always make the right men kings.” 
       
The younger Marie Therese recognized the signal for their Emergency Disaster Plan and grimly agreed to put it into action.  She was small but she was mighty: when Henri came in to say goodnight, she whacked him over the head with a marble bust of Louis XIV and knocked him unconscious.  She then rolled him up in a carpet and dragged him to the cellar where she locked him in a soundproof cell.  She didn’t have an iron mask; such a thing was too old-fashioned even for her as well as too hard to come by.  She did have white flags: lots and lots of them.  She cut holes in one for his eyes, nose and mouth, wrapped it snugly around his head and fastened it into place with a dog collar and a small lock forged by Louis XVI.  Her next step was to sneak outside to the stables, where she gave a distinctive whistle. One of Henri’s numerous penurious illegitimate half-brothers, who had been working as a stablehand, stepped forward out of the gloom. She smuggled him into the house and helped him transform himself into Henri’s double.  In exchange for all the food he could eat – which was quite a lot, for he’d inherited the ravenous Bourbon appetite – Faux Henri presented himself to the world as a diehard reactionary who never did or said anything without the approbation of one or both Marie Thereses.  Faux Henri didn’t have a single twinge of conscience about Vrai Henri, who’d condemned him to the stables instead of treating him like family.  Faux Henri and the younger Marie Therese never did anything that the elder Marie Therese wouldn’t have applauded, with one exception.  Believing that it would blow Faux Henri’s cover, they changed the epitaph on her tomb, which she’d wanted to have inscribed as follows:

"O ye people who pass by on the road, stop and see if there is any sorrow like unto my sorrow: my uncles were pinheads, my husband was a pinhead, my brother-in-law was a pinhead, my sister-in-law was a pinhead, and my nephew Henri was the biggest pinhead of them all." 
 
Vrai Henri lived out his days in his lonely cell with a tennis ball, which he called Wilson, for company.  The younger Marie Therese was sometimes tempted to let him out but he habitually spoiled things for himself by telling Wilson heretical things like this: “Louis XIV spent too much money on himself.  He should have been thinking about the welfare of the average Joe in the street rather than his gloire.”

FINIS [/i] [/color] [/i]

Interestingly said. My Great Grandmother Euphraisie would agree whole heartedly with your first paragraph in THE PRISONER OF FROHSDORF.

  And what fun for my Grandfather and Father since then, like something from "The Scarlet Pimpernel". Two countries later, 115 years, a few faded photos and thousands of kilometres from France.   

[Eric_Lowe]

Was that fiction or truth ? Where did that information came from ? 

[nom de plume]

Was that fiction or truth ? Where did that information came from ? 

In an earlier post in this thread, I said that the only way that the two Marie Thereses could be held accountable for Henri’s actions was if they’d put a Prisoner of Zenda scenario into action.  My above post was fiction * and was intended to show just how stupid such a scenario was.  The two Marie Thereses would never have done anything to hurt Henri.

As I see it, our difference of opinion about Henri hinges upon our different interpretations of free will/personal responsibility.  I believe that people are responsible for their actions unless there are extenuating circumstances such as mental illness, severe childhood abuse, duress, and so forth.  You seem to believe that people are responsible for their actions if, and only if, certain standards known to yourself are met.  I hopped around the boards a bit and found that you’d held Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen responsible for her actions even though she suffered from mental illness (not porphyria):

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=644.150   

I believe that Charlotte was mistreated as a child, which helped trigger her illness.  I do not believe that she was entirely responsible for her actions although I must admit that she was a nasty piece of work.  Unlike Charlotte, Henri was not mistreated as a child, nor did he suffer from mental illness.  In my opinion, that makes him 100% responsible for his actions, including his decision to torpedo his chances at restoration.  If you disagree, so be it.   

* You asked for my sources.  THE PRISONER OF FROHSDORF was based, in part, on The Man in the Iron Mask by Victor Hugo; The Prisoner of Zenda by Anthony Hope; the film Cast Away; and, for a part that I wound up deleting because I felt that the star-crossed romance aspect did not fit the overall snarky tone, Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte.

[Mari]

The younger Marie Therese recognized the signal for their Emergency Disaster Plan and grimly agreed to put it into action.  She was small but she was mighty: when Henri came in to say goodnight, she whacked him over the head with a marble bust of Louis XIV and knocked him unconscious.  She then rolled him up in a carpet and dragged him to the cellar where she locked him in a soundproof cell.  She didn’t have an iron mask; such a thing was too old-fashioned even for her as well as too hard to come by.  She did have white flags: lots and lots of them.  She cut holes in one for his eyes, nose and mouth, wrapped it snugly around his head and fastened it into place with a dog collar and a small lock forged by Louis XVI.

Very amusing! However, I also agree Marie Therese d’Angouleme  had a lot to do with the way Henri sabotaged his chances toward the throne. Have you heard the expression "give me a child until he is seven"...if not here is one of the books to read. (below) It is well known that habit, training, early programing have a lasting effect! You are assuming that Adults automatically reason out in a common sense way the best course. Not true..We usually fall back during really difficult decisions on training.  But it makes for an interesting discussion.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0750703199/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop?v=search-inside&keywords=Index&go.x=13&go.y=12&go=Go%21

[Eric_Lowe]

I agree with Mari on this. Marie Therese's conservative influence on Henry in his early years did contributed (not 100% but a cool 70% can be attributed to her I believe). If he was raised by his mother, he could have turn out perhaps more relaxed and torlerant of change than groomed by a dour childless conservative, who cannot forgive the French Repbulic for executing her parents and drove her family into exile again under her father-in-law. 

[REMI]

The countess of Chambord.

REMI

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes...although shealways looked frail and sad. 

[Bourgogne]

I think Burgoyne is teasing us ;-)

But no, I'm absolutely not teasing anybody!!!

Louis-Napoléon's possible adoption by the comte de Chambord is a very serious fact, and the letters between Henry, queen Isabel II and empress Eugénie are well known. You will find that in the very serious french biography "Le Comte de Chambord" by Jean-François Chiappe (Ed. Perrin, 1999).

M. de Monti, M. de Rezé and the duc de Castries, Henry's counsellors, were also involved in this matter. Isabel II was hating the Orléans, she said it to M. de Monti, and she said that the comte de Chambord too was hating the Orléans, even after the apparent reconciliation. That's why she wanted to organize this deal with the Prince Imperial.

[The Prussian]

Long time since I added to this particular topic.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen (or even heard of) a picture (painting or photo) of the Comte de Chambord's younger half-brother Adinolfo Lucchesi-Palli, 9th Duca della Grazia?

I wonder if there is any family resemblance?

Thanks to anyone who can help,
The Prussian

[Philippe Delorme]

Long time since I added to this particular topic.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen (or even heard of) a picture (painting or photo) of the Comte de Chambord's younger half-brother Adinolfo Lucchesi-Palli, 9th Duca della Grazia?

I wonder if there is any family resemblance?

Thanks to anyone who can help,
The Prussian

 

If you are interesting by Henri comte de Chambord, you can notice my edition of his "Journal" (Diary) never yet published (1846-1883). For more informations :
http://phidelorme.blog.lu


Philippe DELORME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Delorme