Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives

[Julie-Eleonore]

I keep wondering about one thing I know not-I know Joseph wasn't fond of her, but what about her feelings to him? Did she like him? She was happy to marry a king and future emperor, writing him letters which were to assure him of her loyalty to his person, but her relationship
to him is still not clear to me.

[britt.25]

It's interesting. I never head about a relationship between Eleonore von Liechtenstein and Joseph II. And I also have to confess that I would not have expected this. Can you tell me at which time it was?
I was concerned with Joseph quite a lot some years a go, and in general it is known that he only loved his first wife Isabella of Parma very deeply, who was a close friend to Josephs sister Archduchess Marie Christine. It is also said that Isabella herself is not supposed to have had the same strong feelings for the emperor than Joseph II himself had for Isabella. Her letters have rather a great admiration for Marie Christine than for Joseph, which is considered as quite unusual and strange. When Isabella died during the birth of her second child, the emperor was so deeply hurted and trodden down that he never could love any woman again, so is the general opinion. He wrote to his father in- law- to have lost everything, which he had ever loved. From that time on, Joseph changed completely and did not show any kind of humanity anymore. It became even worse, when also his only daughter and child by Isabella died at a very young age. Things like a happy family, love, and children were replaced by his empire, his people, and his reforms, which were too much "enlightened" for that time. His mother Maria Theresia forced him to marry a second time, with his relative Marie Josepha of Bavaria. It was evidently a typical political marriage and Joseph never had any feelings for her. It is also a general opinion that both did not have any sexual contact at all. Even when she died, Joseph did not come to her bed, and did not attend the funeral as well. It's really strange that behaviour.  As I only know that story about Joseph and his wives, it would really be interesting to know, if he had any lover in time of his second marriage (I don't think that he had any lovers in the time of his marriage with Isabella, because he had that strong feelings for her!). In my book I did not find any mentionings about close friendships to women and lovers concerning Joseph, I think he was not able to love anymore after the fate of his wife and daughter, but if there is any other proof, it would be very interesting to know!

[Julie-Eleonore]

Alors, it is doubtful that he had any longer and loving relationship ever in his life. He is said never to have really known returned love, like the one he gave Isabella. As for Eleonore, it is openly said she rejected him, but what a materialistic statement that is, when one knows her personality! Yes, she liked to change lovers, like socks, but she was very fond of intelligence along with virility. Which she could find by Joseph. She rejected him, because she thought he joked, when he told her he loved her (he was a bit drunk, if he weren't he'd've never told her!), but after, shortly before she left to Paris, she was being seen more in the palace than ever before. Also, she was there the last night before leaving, the emperor kept his door locked all night and her bed at home remained empty. After she left, they never met again, but Eleonore became a great friend to Marie Antoinette and whenever talked to her about her brother, she used "very tender words, like a mother". Now I doubt this is all an accident, but also, it will probably remain a mistery...

[britt.25]

It's an interesting story, maybe he really felt something for her. Or did he only say that?  As I had not heard about that before, can you name me any book, where to read about that story? It would interest me a lot to get to know more about that subject...!Can you tell at which time that was? Which year? THANKS!

[Julie-Eleonore]

The guide in our castle (yes, Eleonore lived in the neighborhood!) said that Eleonore was a distant realtive to Queen Maria Theresia, who felt friendship for her. She didn't like how she handled cocqueterie, so she invited her to the court to live with them for some time, so that she can watch her manners and teach her some chastity. But all she achieved was that the engaged ( to Josepha of Bavaria) archduke Joseph showed interest toward her. But it looked only like a sudden sparkle, which very soon died out and he paid no more attention to the woman. This happened in the '70s, but I don't know when exactly. After MT's death, Eleonore returned to Wien and along with her sister and some more ladies, made a sort of a friendly circle to Joseph, who, except them, didn't really have friends. He spent the afternoons and evenings with them, talking or playing music. Then once, Eleonore held a soirée in her Belvedere near Vienna and there Joseph fell to her feet and confessed his feelings. You can read about this f. ex. in Hans Magenschab's "Josef II. - Österreichs Weg in die Moderne". But otherwise, almost every biography of his at least mentions this affection, which took place around 1783. But as I said, they all are persuaded there was just nothing...

[beladona]

Yes, it was in the beginning of ´70s. There were five ladies in the friendly circle close to Josef II:
the main person, Marie Eleonora Liechtenstein, born Oettingen
her younger sister Leopoldine, married to Ernest Kaunitz
Marie Josepha Clary, born Hohenzollern-Hechingen,
her sister Sidonie, wife of Ulrich Kinsky
and Leopoldine (born Sternberg), wife of Franz Josef Liechtenstein.

[eejm]

Did Joseph ever know of his wife's supposed feelings (or affair with) his sister, Maria Christina?

[Julie-Eleonore]

Eejm:
Well, some sources argue, whether Cristina showed him the letters and notes Isabella wrote to her or not. We shall never know the truth. But what we know is that Joseph was so blinded with love as for Isabella, that I'd sa he'd hardly believe any negative facts about her person...

[britt.25]

I also think that (even when I cannot be sure), that he would not have been worried or anything about those letters, if he had seen them. I'm not sure, if he knew anything of that. Maybe he would have been surprised that his wife had such strong feelings for his sister Marie Christine, it's indeed a strange story....
By the way, are there any pictures of Eleonore? Was she a beautiful woman??

[Marc]

Yes,Eleonore is indeed a distant relative of Maria Theresia.Her father was Johann Alois Fst zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Oettingen-Spielberg(MT grandmother was from Oettingen-Wallerstein dynasty) and her mother was Princess Theresia Maria Anna von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Wiesenburg,so she was rather well connected...

[Julie-Eleonore]

Posted by: britt.25 
Insert Quote
I also think that (even when I cannot be sure), that he would not have been worried or anything about those letters, if he had seen them. I'm not sure, if he knew anything of that. Maybe he would have been surprised that his wife had such strong feelings for his sister Marie Christine, it's indeed a strange story....
By the way, are there any pictures of Eleonore? Was she a beautiful woman??

-I have two portraits of her, but I don't know how to attach pictures here, so you will have to write on my mail, which is: anntoanette@email.cz
I shall gladly share the pictures!

[Marc]

It would be great to see them...I also read somewhere on this board that she was a very famous society lady!

[Julie-Eleonore]

 

It would be great to see them...I also read somewhere on this board that she was a very famous society lady!

Yes she was! As I said, being a relative and friend to Maria Theresia, she spent a lot of time at the court and the Wiener Belvedere, where she held parties several times. She is often accused of cocqueterie, but they're just a bit overdoing it all...

[britt.25]

I find it especially interesting that she was a distant relative to the empress and therefore also related her friend Joseph II. Even when impossible , it would have been interesting, if both had married after the first wife of Joseph II was dead, maybe he would have been more happy with Eleonore than with his second wife, who he did not love. 

Julie Eleonore! I would be interested in the pictures to look, how she looked like. You can either send me an Email (look on my profile) and I can load the pics here, or you do it yourself. For example at www.photobucket.com. You can download any of your pictures there and then copy the link in the space here: Look at the little image on your tool- line above writing space! If you have problems please tell me! Good luck!

One more thing. How do you consider Joseph II as such, especially his views and politics? I once had a presentation about this topic at my university, and we found out that he was in many points simply too enlightened for his time, which was still too conservative in many points. His mum Marie Theresia was also had those enlightened thoughts, but she was a bit more careful with the reforms, which could hurt old costums of the people and so on. Joseph did it more radically and therefore was not very loved, especially at the end of his life, even when many things were indeed not that bad and gave the basis for future reforms of the empire after him etc. One positive thing at the reforms of Maria Theresia and Joseph II were that because of those reforms no revolution like in France happened , where Josephs sister was killed. 

[Julie-Eleonore]

   Well, no doubt, just as Marie Antoinette should have been allowed to marry Wolferl Mozart and her head would've probably stayed on longer, Joseph and Eleonore's love was a fruit of its own affection, it was not provoked or forced out by political advantages. I think Maria Theresia knew of it nay, for if she did, she would have done all she could to prevent such a relationship, which was rudely against the Spanish Etiquette.
   In fact, even Isabella was a sort of a relative to Joseph, since as far as I know, she was a niece to Louis XV. And for Louis XVI. was M. Antoinette's cousin, she must have been at least a distant relative to her bethroned, but alas, that was rather usual by then. All the roalty was bound into one, big family.
   I am really sorry that it did never quite work out for Eleonöre and Joseph, because he then really knew no returned love, there was no tender hand to stroke his hair after a hard day of work, but I think he looked co cold and unfeeling on the outter side that everyone better avoided him, even though inside him, a very sensitive heart hid.

  As for Joseph and his political views, I can of course not agree with everything, but all he has done was done with the best and most noble intentions toward his people. He was never quite understood by them, some of his reforms may have sounded needless (preventing baking of gingerbread or to embargo Castrati from singing some of Mozart's aria's not to ruin their voices), but he has all in all, published a whole 6000 of them, so I think by some of them, he may have not thought twice.
   I like the way he loved his people and his country and am badly sorry for how little gratefulness he got in return for his good will. All the same, I am angry if I think how people wept after him once he died and they realised what have they lost...

   A look into his soul you interested may find in this perfectly lively book: "L. Mühlbach; Joseph the Second and His Court"- the original is naturally in German, but I have an English edition from 1908 and the original title is neglected.