Author Topic: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives  (Read 50892 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2007, 01:36:46 PM »
Thanks for your detailled explanations... ::)

Firstly here are the two wonderful pictures (Thanks to Julie-Eleonore :) :))





La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Marc

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2007, 02:27:16 PM »
Thank you both :-) Could someone tell me is the guy next to Eleonore her husband,relative or doesn't have anything to do with her?

Julie-Eleonore

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2007, 02:50:06 PM »
Thank you both :-) Could someone tell me is the guy next to Eleonore her husband,relative or doesn't have anything to do with her?

He's her husband that took her to live in Moravia.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 04:11:51 AM »
Did she know Joseph II also before marrying? When did she marry and did she have any children with her husband or with any other man? A child of Joseph would have been WONDERFUL , but that's all only my phantasy ::)
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Julie-Eleonore

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 07:10:01 AM »
Alors, I don't know much about her spousal life, except the names of the husbands. I know that in 1794, she left to England with the scottishman Quentin Crawford, but later married some irishman, O'Donnel. In Paris, her husband was Sullivan, I don't know what happened to him. Even before, I suppose it was the duke of Wittelsbach that had the honor of calling her wife, I know no more. She had four children, the youngest boy had light blue eyes, and fair hair. He was born when she was in Paris, I think... As I said, I still have windows, I don't know the half of her life but the part she spent in Vienna.
  Like I remarked, I stand with the opinion that the night before leaving, she spent alone with Joseph in his chambers. Hard to say what happened, but since, as quoted, he said to her once: "In your presence, I almost feel like with my wife.", it is quite sure that they did not sit in one corner each...      :-\
  Well, we shall simply never know the truth...
   But I agree, it would be a lovely book to write about Their story and "bepaint" it a bit...   ;) Poor Joseph, what are we doing with his intimate life here...  :-[

Offline britt.25

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2007, 02:01:22 PM »
Interesting details about her private life...Do you have pictures of her children? Would be very interesting. Any infos, who they married?

Yes, it is indeed remarkable, if he said that sentence. "I almost feel like with my wife". This sentence seems really amazing from a man like Joseph, who really only shall have loved his first wife and then not anybody later after that. In general- as I quoted from a book- he was considered as a man, whose interests in family and women are said to have been replaced by his state, people, reforms etc after the first wife's death. I really would never have thought that he might have loved anyone else, but that Eleonore story really seems amazing. I did not believe in it at the beginning but by the time it becomes more interesting after reading all your detailled infos. It would have been some kind of sensational, if might have felt something for Eleonore or had spent a night with her. I never heard of any affairs of Joseph , so what an interesting thesis!!!

It's wonderful that you planning a book on that subject, because it seems a topic, which was not "used" before. I write historical stories myself, and one always stands between the historical truth and one own's phantasy, it's not always easy. More in private maybe ::) ::)
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Julie-Eleonore

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2007, 11:36:49 AM »
I apologogize for the delay in replying, but starting school again has occupied my life more than I thought.

No, I don't have any portraits of her children, unfortunately. I must first find out where she lived exactly (she was born in Italy) and then perhaps find out whether her children were portrayed at all.

Now as I read my "excellent" literature "Joseph II. and his court", page after page I am starting to dislike the author more and more. Actually, he introduces to us a perfect, lusty polish Confederate, who seduces and uses Joseph, although he possibly never knew such a woman. I thought the book was being more serious... But otherwise I quite like it!

Offline britt.25

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2007, 07:31:51 AM »
Hello,

it's a pity that the book that you're reading at the moment is not so good. It's always very hard to get the literature about a topic, which is interesting, but also told objectively. Many authors have a special thesis or a special view on a person or a topic  and then write about that with a very narrow view. Sometimes there comes a point, where you don't know what to believe and what not.
For my opinion it sounds quite strange that there is a book, which wants to state that Joseph was seduced or used by any woman or something, he was surely not that type of person, who would let do something like that with himself. I learned a lot of Joseph and his thoughts and reforms and his personality in the past, and to be honest, I think this does not fit. But as I said often there are authors, who have a special view on a person and collect everthing, which fits to the thesis and all the others things are put aside. Bad something like that.
Any more good literature on Joseph for recommend?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

beladona

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2007, 02:16:03 AM »
Thank you both :-) Could someone tell me is the guy next to Eleonore her husband,relative or doesn't have anything to do with her?

He's her husband that took her to live in Moravia.

I think it´s not her husband, but her eldest son Karl, who was killed in 1795 in duel.

beladona

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2007, 02:24:01 AM »
Alors, I don't know much about her spousal life, except the names of the husbands. I know that in 1794, she left to England with the scottishman Quentin Crawford, but later married some irishman, O'Donnel. In Paris, her husband was Sullivan, I don't know what happened to him. Even before, I suppose it was the duke of Wittelsbach that had the honor of calling her wife, I know no more. She had four children, the youngest boy had light blue eyes, and fair hair. He was born when she was in Paris, I think... As I said, I still have windows, I don't know the half of her life but the part she spent in Vienna.
  Like I remarked, I stand with the opinion that the night before leaving, she spent alone with Joseph in his chambers. Hard to say what happened, but since, as quoted, he said to her once: "In your presence, I almost feel like with my wife.", it is quite sure that they did not sit in one corner each...      :-\
  Well, we shall simply never know the truth...
   But I agree, it would be a lovely book to write about Their story and "bepaint" it a bit...   ;) Poor Joseph, what are we doing with his intimate life here...  :-[

You are talking aabout Marie Eleonora (1745-1812), wife of Karl Liechtenstein (1730-89)???
The first part seems to me like fairytales...especially when i I look on some genealogy pages...

Offline britt.25

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2007, 03:40:14 AM »
I don't know, but does other serious literature not say that both were spending time together? Ususally it is stated that Joseph II was not able to love anyone else after the death of is beloved wife, but I did not know the Eleonore story before. You don't share that opinion? The problem is that one would need more sources for an objective view...
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

beladona

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2007, 04:30:20 AM »
No, I do not want to deny some kind of close friendship between Joseph II. and Eleonora Liechtenstein.
I just do not understand if Julie-Eleonora really speaks about Eleonora, when she wrote the names of her husbands - these scottishman and irishman and so on. I have never heard about it... Julie-Eleonora writes, that Eleonora (?) had four children. Does she think children from her other marriages? from marriage with Karl Liechtenstein she had 7 children, one girl and six boys. So that´s why I am asking...

Julie-Eleonore

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2007, 11:34:22 AM »
Beladona-
the fact is that just a few days ago, I found a site, where I found out she had in fact 7 children, not 4, as I previously thought, but what is sure that she WAS married to O'Donnel and later, her name was Sullivan and she left to England with Crawfurd in 1794. I mistaked the name of Wittelsbach and I apologize, I meant to write "Liechtenstein".
 
But these facts about her life after the revolution are rather widely known, just as her friendship to Marie Antoinette. I think you should look after these more properly. If you don't trust me, then I can recommend you some more convincing literature on this topic, than is this forum, where, after all, any rubbish can be written.

Julie-Eleonore

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2007, 12:11:05 PM »
And one more thing I forgot to add-on the photo I sent about her portrait, which is accompained by that of the "man"-I took it in our castle and the guide said it was her husband, Karl von Liechtenstein. I never saw his appearance, so I cannot judge, but I don't think it can't be him...

beladona

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2007, 02:08:44 AM »
Julie-Eleonora, sorry, I didn´t want to blame you or anything like that...I was just very surprised with things you wrote. When I´m interested in some person I always started to looking for informations in some genealogy pages (parents, marriages, children etc.) - these are mostly correct and proved. The same case was Eleonora Liechtenstein. And there were nothing about her other marriages except the one with Karl Liechtenstein. So that´s why I was so surprised by your informations.
And if you have some interesting literature to this topic, please, put it down...