Author Topic: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives  (Read 51870 times)

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Mari

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2007, 03:35:16 AM »
Quote
In your presence, I almost feel like with my wife.", it is quite sure that they did not sit in one corner each.


Very interesting! So, it sounds almost  like his wife was loving! I thought her unresponsive since She was in love with her Sister-in-law.

 Yes, it is quite good to know Joseph felt love again but did Eleanore feel the same way?

Julie-Eleonore

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2007, 09:50:37 AM »
Mari, this is a mistery and we shall never know for sure. Some sources say they were lovers, but most of them state that she never loved him back. These are the ones which also add that the period witnesses said she simply rejected him. But did they have to see everything? What if they both wanted to confuse everyone, so that there wouldn't be rumors and in the meanwhile they were a contented couple? The teasy thing is that as much as I know Joseph's way of thinking, this thesis would fit it perfectly...

Beladona, I recommend you read "Untold love story: Marie Antoinette and count Fersen" by Evelyn Farr, "Josef II.-Österreichs Weg in die Moderne" by Hans Magenschab or any professional biography about Joseph, Eleonore is at least mentioned in every one of them.
   And if I may be so bold, how did Eleonore interest you?


beladona

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2007, 04:35:45 PM »
I have read some biographies of Joseph, but there is Eleonora only mentioned, just in connection with their friendly relations. Nothing about her later life. I will try to find something more about her. I´m interested in Liechtenstein family, that´s how i "found" Eleonora. :)

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2009, 09:18:41 PM »
Some of you may not have read this earlier..........Isabella's instructions to Archduchess Marie Christine on how to win over her parents.

On Emperor Francis I : The Emperor has many good qualities and many faults.  He is extremely kind-hearted, you can always count on him - but he can be easily influenced and he distinguishes people with his confidence who do not deserve it.  I am thinking of Princess Auersperg in particular - you certainly know that - but perhaps you do not know how much he is under her influence.  She often moves him to decisions which are very difficult to put into effect and discusses matters with him that are none of her business.  The Emperor does not like if someone shows too excessive an enthusiasm for his wife in his presence.   I, too, keep my admiration for her a secret from him - for were I to emphasize it overly, he would become cool towards me.  If you want him to love you, discuss matters of state with him as much as you can.   Pretend not to be informed about anything, let him enlighten and instruct you. This would make him very happy....."

On Empress-Queen Maria Theresa:  "The Queen is an infinitely tender, sentimental, kindly woman; if she takes someone to her heart, she is ready to bring any sacrifice and show the most extensive interest in his or her welfare, with tremendous care and attention.  Whoever turns for advice to her will find his cause immediately adopted, and she will occupy herself most intensely with his trouble.   She has experienced a great deal and knows people.  But- if she has to decide her own affairs, she doesn't trust her judgement that is why she has such difficulty in coming to a conclusion and turns often for advice to others, who mislead her deliberately.   The distrust in herself she transfer to her children, too; she is suspicious of them, sometimes appears even cold.  Her nature is extremely lively and her passions often carry her away. At such times it is best to let her expend her rage and, if possible, persuade her not to come to an immediate decision.  If something makes her indignant, you must share this indignation, must discuss the matter with her and calm her down cautiously so that she may change the decision taken in sudden anger. Mostly this is possible - and later she is extremely grateful for it, for her fundamental character is kind and she loves justice.... She loves her children but disciplines them excessively.  Therefore you must always take their side but must not hide their faults, for the Queen would consider this lack of sincerity."
 
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2009, 03:40:46 AM »
Yes, she was extremely astute.  It is fascinating to wonder whether, as Eric suggests, her eagerness to please coupled with her tendency towards depression might have overcome that part of mind which was very shrewd and gave her a clear view of how to achieve a strong personal influence over people.  She clearly knew what buttons to press with her in-laws, and with her husband, too.  Yet you never get the impression that Isabel was coldly calculating, just very, very intelligent and clear-sighted about people.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2010, 09:18:28 AM »
Yes. Isabella could have been an excellent consort to Josef II. It was his tragedy that she died and took much of the liviness of his life with her. However I think Isabella felt a bit of guilt about her love with Mimi, and I think she was a closeted lesbian.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2010, 02:58:26 PM »
Yes. Isabella could have been an excellent consort to Josef II. It was his tragedy that she died and took much of the liviness of his life with her. However I think Isabella felt a bit of guilt about her love with Mimi, and I think she was a closeted lesbian.

Certainly Sanger thought she was in love with Maria Christina, and her letters are undoubtedly passionate.  Given the lack of privacy however, it seems unlikely it had much, if any, physical expression and in that regard might well have been more of one of those highly charged emotional female friendships which were not uncommon in that age of dawning sentimentality in the upper classes where marriages were seldom matters of love. The letters offer no real evidence either way. I can't see that it would have made any difference to her relationship with Joseph, however, and I've never read anything in her letters which suggested to me she had any feelings of guilt about her feelings with regard to Maria Christina - although she was certainly discreet about them. 

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2010, 03:48:08 PM »
I read at the end of her life she was unhappy and was described as a bit Bontaish in her sentiments.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2010, 03:02:59 AM »
Parma's online library says that Isabella took refuge in isolation in the Court of Vienna and was not at ease. And that she had difficulties in her relationship with both Joseph and Maria Theresa. It also states that she wrote (together with her Jesuit tutors) a document, Meditations Chretiennes,  which was published posthumous. It was seen as a symbol of deep Christian devotion of both the Bourbons and the Habsburgs and was a great success in Italy (reprinted many times). It also said Isabella loved food and (I think this would not surprise anyone) had a morbid mysticism, including a persisent desire for death.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 03:09:39 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2010, 05:30:09 AM »
Parma's online library says that Isabella took refuge in isolation in the Court of Vienna and was not at ease. And that she had difficulties in her relationship with both Joseph and Maria Theresa. It also states that she wrote (together with her Jesuit tutors) a document, Meditations Chretiennes,  which was published posthumous. It was seen as a symbol of deep Christian devotion of both the Bourbons and the Habsburgs and was a great success in Italy (reprinted many times). It also said Isabella loved food and (I think this would not surprise anyone) had a morbid mysticism, including a persisent desire for death.

It's not obvious from the Sanger biography that Isabella was 'not at ease' in the Viennese court or where there were difficulties with her husband or mother-in-law.  She clearly recognised that they were both difficult personalities who needed careful handling, but it does appear that she had their measure and knew how to approach them.  I wonder whether these perceived difficulties lay in her reserve, preoccupation with death, and her passion for Maria Christina - clear signs of some sort of disfunction, and perhaps this has been read back as a lack of compatibility with her new family and marriage.  Isabella was deeply reserved, and clearly compartmentalised her life, but many royals in their highly exposed positions did so quite successfully (her grandfather Louis XV, for example).  Her 'isolation' is not really demonstrated in the Sanger biography, although it was clear from the letters she wrote to Maria Christina she opened her heart to very few without reserve.  That didn't mean she couldn't function successfully within the court and with her new family, however, and it would be interesting to know what the online library of Parma puts forward as evidence that she was uneasy there.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2010, 08:26:30 AM »
Yes. I sort of think that perhaps her guilt feelings with Maria Cristina, made her unhappy and think of death. Isabella was a pleaser and made everyone happy (except maybe herself), and the stress to keep the peace with her husband, mother-in-law and sister-in-law was too much for her to cope. The letters with Mimi opened a window to her soul.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2010, 09:16:34 PM »
Parma's online library has a list of sources (Sanger is not among them) for its write-up on Isabella but I can't seem to find which particular source said that Isabella was uneasy at the Viennese court.

Parma will host a series of events this year until next year to commemorate the 250th death anniversary of Louise-Elisabeth of France, who was described as strong-willed, independent, brilliant, a skilled diplomat, a loyal wife (she wrote affectionate letters to her husband) and a scrupulous mother.

The first event was the public showing of a version of the posthumous portrait by Jean Marc Nattier, long held in a private collection, and that of Van Loo along with other articles related to Louise-Elisabeth.

The second event will be this month and it will show a series of artworks related to the reign of Louise Elisabeth, including Petitot's drawings of Isabella of Parma's marriage festivities.

The third event is scheduled in September 2010, a symposium on Louise Elisabeth and the first decade (1749-1759) of Bourbon rule in Parma.

The fourth and last event is scheduled in April 2011 and will feature the special events in LE's life: the wedding festivities in France, her journeys, the baptism of her son Ferdinand, etc.

The article in Italian......

http://www.skande.com/luisa-elisabetta-di-borbone-mostra-a-parma-042010.html    
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:21:17 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2010, 10:26:54 AM »
Would love to go see it ! Need tickets ?

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2010, 11:57:26 PM »
Eric_Lowe: Great if you can go to any of the remaining events on Louise-Elisabeth.... I'm not sure perhaps there will be a minimal fee/charge for the exhibits. I'd think the symposium, if open to the public, would cost more. I'll send you any more details via PM as I find it. 

Parma did a symposium in 2002 to commemorate Duke Ferdinand's 200th death anniversary and its results were made/published into a book. Perhaps the same will be made for Louise-Elisabeth! :)
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Emperor Joseph II, his private life and wives
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2010, 08:56:16 AM »
Would love to get my hands on that book !  ;)