Author Topic: Dukes of Burgundy  (Read 9239 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Dukes of Burgundy
« on: December 18, 2005, 05:28:26 PM »
Hi all.  ;) Here's a thread for discussion of the reigning dukes of Burgundy.

Here's a few pics:
Charles the Bold - http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/ChurchHistory220/images/VanderWeydenKarl.jpg

His daughter, Marie, Duchess of Burgundy:
http://www.wga.hu/art/p/pacher/4mary.jpg

http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/unknown/unknown4.jpg

   * Richard of Autun, the Justicier (880–921)
   * Rudolph of Burgundy (king of France from 923) (921–923)
   * Hugh the Black (923–952)
   * Gilbert of Chalon (952–956)
   * Odo of Paris (956-965)
   * Otto-Henry the Great (965–1002)
   * Otto-William (1002–1004)

1004: Burgundy annexed by France

   * Henry I of France (1016–1032)

Capetian Dukes

   * Robert I (1032–1076), brother of Henry I
   * Hugh I (1076–1079)
   * Eudes I the Red (1079–1103)
   * Hugh II (1103–1143)
   * Eudes II (1143–1162)
   * Hugh III (1162–1192)
   * Eudes III (1192–1218)
   * Hugh IV (1218–1271)
   * Robert II (1272–1306)
   * Hugh V (1306–1315)
   * Eudes IV (1315–1349)
   * Philip I of Rouvre (1349–1361)

House of Valois

   * Philip II, the Bold (1364–1404)
   * John, the Fearless (1404–1419)
   * Philip III, the Good (1419–1467)
   * Charles I, the Bold (1467–1477)
   * Mary of Burgundy (1477–1482)

Marie - or Mary - married Emperor Maximilian I. Burgundy eventually passed to their grandson, Charles V, king of Spain, Holy Roman Emperor, so the Burgundian inheritance became tied up with the Habsburgs.

Any pics or info to volunteer?
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2005, 05:52:14 PM »
For anyone wondering exactly what territories made up Burgundy, this might help - a map of the territories under Duke Philip the Good.

http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH_214images/burgundy_maps/burgundy_map_philip_bon.jpg

And, clipped from the same site:
In area, Valois Burgundy was comparable in size to the kingdom of England (with Wales), or Portugal, or Aragon, or Naples (with Sicily and Sardinia); but it was not as large as Castile or France. If size, wealth, population and natural resources be taken together it was a lesser power than France but greater than Savoy or any of the German or north Italian states.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2005, 01:21:49 AM »
No,I wasn't wondering about the territory,it was the greater part of the Low Lands,present day Netherlands,present day Belgium and large chunks of France.We used to discuss that when I was at elimentary school,but since decades,this period isn't on the schools itinerary anymore,"too long ago,history",and learning dates and facts was/is regarded as totally useless.You can very well imagine that I wholeheardtedly disagree! There is just little,of interest,known about the period between Charlemagne and say Philip the Good.The Dutch were governed by the Counts of Holland.The Dukes you mention mean nothing to us,we never were under their influence.

I believe Philip the Good and Charles the Bold held Court at Brugge(Bruges),(or got married there),and Nancy(France)IIRC.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2005, 08:06:41 AM »
I'm sorry Lucien, you sound upset. Do you want me to move this to the French board? :-/
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

bell_the_cat

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2005, 08:12:24 AM »
The first Burgundy (until the 11 th C) looked quite different - it was basically the Rhone valley down to Marseilles and Provence, with chunks of Switzerland thrown in!

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1000.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2005, 08:20:40 AM »
Well, I was just looking at a book of maps of historical Europe, and Burgundy in 1477 rougly composed of:

*The Bioshopric of Utrecht, including Amsterdam and Utrecht.
*The Duchy of Brabant, containing Brussels.
*The Counties of Flanders and Artois, including Ghent, Bruges and Arras.
*Part of Northern France comprising of Boulogne, Picardy, Ponthieu, Amiens and surrounding lands.
*The Bishopric of Liege, including Liege.
*The Duchy of Luxembourg.
*The Duchy of Lorraine including Nancy, and parts of Alsace.
*The County of Burgundy, which lay within the Holy Roman Empire, including Besancon.
*The Duchy of Burgundy, within France, including Dijon and Nevers.

What do people think? Is this ok here or would the French board be better?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2005, 09:42:19 AM »
The BeNeLux, French and Hohenzollen boards all seem to have claims to this topic - why not stick to BeNeLux as it has just as much right, if no more than others.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2005, 03:43:06 PM »
Quote
I'm sorry Lucien, you sound upset. Do you want me to move this to the French board? :-/


Oh heavens no Prince_Lieven,leave it here,please.No,I'm not upset at all,except maybe for the attitude by the Dutch school system that,for so long,considered history of little or no importance.

No actually I'm glad this thread by you has appeared,it was a very rich and significant episode in European history.

Gilbert of Chalon,ancestor of René of Chalon,who proclaimed his cousin Willem of Nassau his Heir,and was henceforth better known as Willem the Silent,Prince of Orange,yes,the topic definitely belongs here. ;)
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 03:35:15 PM »
Very interesting topic, as I love the dualism between the "two Burgundies", i.e. the Duchy and the County (aka Franche-Comté):
Gilbert of Chalon,ancestor of René of Chalon,who proclaimed his cousin Willem of Nassau his Heir
No doubt this Gilbert of Chalon, Duke of Burgundy (952–956) was a cognatic ancestor of René de Chalon, but agnatically the House of Chalon-Arlay was a branch of the House of Ivrea, once Kings of Italy and Counts of Burgundy.

In the 13th century they came to occupy a strategic position along the river Sâone, roughly the dividing line between the Duchy and County of Burgundy, when Etienne III, Count of Auxonne, married the heiress of the Count of Chalon-sur-Sâone. Their son Jean I (1190 - 1267) was not just the first Ivrean by the name of Chalon, but also founded the dynasty's position when he allied himself with the Duke of Burgundy and exchanged the border counties of Auxonne and Chalon in return for great landholdings in the County of Burgundy: The rich salt mines of Salins(-les-Bains), Belvoir, Vuillafans, Ornans, Montfaucon, Chaussin, Orgelet, Arlay, the Château des Clées in the Vaud and other important strongholds protecting the transport of the precious salt mined in his mines.



Even though they kept their Chalon name, their new arms was those of the Barony of Arlay (still one of Queen Beatrix' titles): Gules, a bend or, which they later quartered with the hunting horn of the Principality of Orange and the chequered gold-blue arms of the County of Genevois over-all. Hence they were also known as the House of Chalon-Arlay.



The Chalon-Arlay arms in the arms of Willem the Silent (over Nassau, Katzenellenbogen, Vianden and Die(t)z):


Very interesting with regard to the later Nassau-Orange - Coligny alliance is also the fact that the Chalon-Arlays, both as Counts of Chalon and Lords of Salins were among the great Burgundian feudatories who ranked as Princes of Burgundy, together with the Princes of Coligny. Coligny being a village in the County of Burgundy, in the so-called Sovereignty of Revermont.
And the Coligny arms (left) seem to be a variation of the ancient arms of the County of Burgundy (right):
...

While the modern arms of the County of Burgundy aka Franche-Comté (left) down to the field "billetty or" are strikingly similar to, even identical with the Nassau arms (right) and thus also to a large extent with the modern Dutch arms, even though they as far as I know evolved independently:
...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:43:53 PM by Tainyi Sovetnik »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukes of Burgundy
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 05:51:54 PM »
Correction:
Very interesting with regard to the later Nassau-Orange - Coligny alliance is also the fact that the Chalon-Arlays, both as Counts of Chalon and Lords of Salins were among the great Burgundian feudatories who ranked as Princes of Burgundy, together with the Princes of Coligny. Coligny being a village in the County of Burgundy, in the so-called Sovereignty of Revermont.
And the Coligny arms (left) seem to be a variation of the ancient arms of the County of Burgundy (right):
.....

Quote
Very interesting topic, as I love the dualism between the "two Burgundies", i.e. the Duchy and the County (aka Franche-Comté)
While the Duchy is extremely famous for its wines (and its capital Dijon for its mustard), the County has a lesser known, though also very tasty gastronomic speciality worthy of the legendary good life à la bourguignonne: The Comté cheese. Although it's made from milk from the local Montbéliarde cattle, the Jurassic mountain pastures or something gives it a wonderfully pungent flavour which I as a native of the Atlantic Coastal Heather Moors best can describe as biting into a sheep's shed!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 06:03:14 PM by Rœrik »