Author Topic: John of Gaunt's Children  (Read 15733 times)

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bell_the_cat

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2006, 08:21:23 AM »
This one is called the genealogy of Queen Philippa. It was done for Charles V in the 1530s (for obvious reasons - it shows he has a better claim then the Tudors). Philippa is standing in the middle. Not a contemporary portrait, but interesting.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2006, 09:44:54 AM »
Thanks so much Bell!  :D I've never seen that before!

On a side note, Charles certainly did have a better claim than Henry VII - he was descended from both Philippa and Catalina. Henry VIII and all his successors of course were the legitimate Yorkist heirs through Elizabeth of York.  ;)
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ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2006, 10:11:39 AM »
that depends on how you look at things. if you give the beauforts rights to the throne, henry 7th had a better claim, because he descended male line while charles descended female line...

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2006, 10:12:41 AM »
Yes, that's perfectly right. But the Beauforts were debarred from the succession.  ::)
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ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2006, 10:20:45 AM »
didn't henry do something to get the beaufort claim back up again? i sincerely doubt that he claimed the throne on behalf of his wife (in fact he insisted that he was king in his own right) or that he claimed it because his grandmother was a descendent of edward 1st... that was a useless claim...

bell_the_cat

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2006, 10:35:41 AM »
Quote
Thanks so much Bell!  :D I've never seen that before!

On a side note, Charles certainly did have a better claim than Henry VII - he was descended from both Philippa and Catalina. Henry VIII and all his successors of course were the legitimate Yorkist heirs through Elizabeth of York.  ;)


The genealogy shows Charles' descent from Philippa twice over, through Maximilan of Austria and Mary of Burgundy, who I think are the ones seated at the bottom.

Henry VII claimed the crown by right of conquest - he literally picked it up from the field of Bosworth. He didn't want people looking at his Beaufort ancestry too closely.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2006, 10:38:13 AM »
 ;D i suppose in those times it was smart not to know any history ;D king henry - the rightful king - nothing else matters :P

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2006, 10:56:35 AM »
Well, Henry deliberately avoided having Elizabeth of York crowned for a while, as if to show that he wasn't claiming the throne through her . . .
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2006, 12:40:18 PM »
exactly!

also.. you can't just impose yourself as king like that. there was a reason why after king henry and prince edward died, king edward 4th and his brother, king richard, tried to get henry back home. there's a reason why he was accepted as the major counter claimant to richard 3rd. and i'm pretty sure it was his beaufort link. i suppose at that point there was such a lack of lancaster claimants, they chose to overlook the dubious origin of the beaufort claim...

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2006, 01:29:21 PM »
Yes, and the fact that he did have royal blood, albeit more or less on the wrong side of the blanket - his grandmother had been a Valois, was he was great-nephew to Henry VI.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2006, 01:50:51 PM »
anyway, i am not documented on this so i can't say, but if i were henry 7th i would issue some sort of declaration of the beauforts' claim to the throne, that would cancel out henry iv's one. didn't he do that?

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2006, 02:09:53 PM »
I'm not sure if he did. Perhaps he simply didn't feel the need. ??? Why drag up the whole Beaufort illegitimacy issue again?
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ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2006, 03:35:57 PM »
 :-/

sort it out once and for all?

Offline Kimberly

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2006, 03:38:50 PM »
 A sort of exercise in covering his back, do you mean ;)
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ilyala

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Re: John of Gaunt's Children
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2006, 05:10:24 PM »
the yorkist has spoken ;D