Author Topic: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves  (Read 53574 times)

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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2006, 08:47:17 AM »
I do think it may not have been so much not being interested in men for Anne of Cleves, but rather never having the opportunity beyond Henry, who rejected her, and she had to accept that. But perhaps also she was grateful to him, for all he had given her despite the fact he had broken off their marriage. She was basically a a wealthy, independent British noblewoman because of him, and that might have been enough for her. Perhaps she cherished what he had given her, ( or even him), and didn't want to endanger it by looking at other men, especially in his lifetime. Then again perhaps she never found the right person in terms of rank, power, country, and inclination, or other things.

ilyala

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2006, 07:09:51 AM »
also, had she married, the independence would have flown out the window ;)

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2006, 01:41:30 PM »
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also, had she married, the independence would have flown out the window ;)

Hm.  She certainly did well for herself.  But was Anna truly free?  Because of her situation in England, she was at the whim of Henry and later his children.  It was nice that it worked out as well as it did, but one little misstep and Anna would have been in limbo.  She was, in my mind, a royal prisoner and her cage was made not of iron but of gold.  If she had been allowed to make a marriage, control over her would have been transferred largely to her husband whom Anna could have been manipulated.  I think that, security wise, she would have been more free in a marriage.  Especially if her husband died because she would become truly independent.    

bell_the_cat

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2006, 01:53:32 PM »
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also, had she married, the independence would have flown out the window ;)

Hm.  She certainly did well for herself.  But was Anna truly free?  Because of her situation in England, she was at the whim of Henry and later his children.  It was nice that it worked out as well as it did, but one little misstep and Anna would have been in limbo.  She was, in my mind, a royal prisoner and her cage was made not of iron but of gold.  If she had been allowed to make a marriage, control over her would have been transferred largely to her husband whom Anna could have been manipulated.  I think that, security wise, she would have been more free in a marriage.  Especially if her husband died because she would become truly independent.    

I agree with this. Now that we've discussed Anne of Cleves a bit, I feel desperately sorry for her. I think she had a rotten life!

Until her marriage she was kept under the thumb of her mother who may have been hoping that she would remain an old maid. She had a lucky break when Henry fell in love with her portrait - she must have thought that life was beginning at last. Unfortunately she was totally unprepared for the role and fell flat on her face at the first hurdle. I get the felling that her family blamed her for the failure of the marriage, so that she felt she couldn't go back home. She was actually afraid that she would be killed if she returned to Germany!

Though she was materially well provided for during the rest of her life, I think she was worse off than Mary Queen of Scots during her imprisonment. At least Mary had something to do (i.e. plot) and had a political function. Anne was really dead wood and she probably knew it.  :'(

She's gone down to the bottom of my "which wife would I rather be" list. "Gilded cage" is about right!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2006, 02:14:37 PM »
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also, had she married, the independence would have flown out the window ;)

Hm.  She certainly did well for herself.  But was Anna truly free?  Because of her situation in England, she was at the whim of Henry and later his children.  It was nice that it worked out as well as it did, but one little misstep and Anna would have been in limbo.  She was, in my mind, a royal prisoner and her cage was made not of iron but of gold.  If she had been allowed to make a marriage, control over her would have been transferred largely to her husband whom Anna could have been manipulated.  I think that, security wise, she would have been more free in a marriage.  Especially if her husband died because she would become truly independent.    

I agree with this. Now that we've discussed Anne of Cleves a bit, I feel desperately sorry for her. I think she had a rotten life!

Until her marriage she was kept under the thumb of her mother who may have been hoping that she would remain an old maid. She had a lucky break when Henry fell in love with her portrait - she must have thought that life was beginning at last. Unfortunately she was totally unprepared for the role and fell flat on her face at the first hurdle. I get the felling that her family blamed her for the failure of the marriage, so that she felt she couldn't go back home. She was actually afraid that she would be killed if she returned to Germany!

Though she was materially well provided for during the rest of her life, I think she was worse off than Mary Queen of Scots during her imprisonment. At least Mary had something to do (i.e. plot) and had a political function. Anne was really dead wood and she probably knew it.  :'(

She's gone down to the bottom of my "which wife would I rather be" list. "Gilded cage" is about right!

I never thought about her family blaming her, now I feel worse!  Maybe she didn't care because she realized they were to blame for her predicament - especially her Mother Dearest.  And was she really afraid they would kill her back in Germany!?  I hadn't heard of that before, that's horrible.  I mean, it's Cleves for heaven's sake, it's not like they were that important to begin with.  

I can only hope, and I think this may be somewhat true, that Anna didn't really feel her predicament as bad because she had known no other kind of existence.  She went straight from her mother to Henry, from one handler to another.  Although I am sure her eyes were opened somewhat in England (those English women had quite a bit of freedom), I don't think it was enough to change almost thirty years of imprinting.  

On to a happier subject (hopefully): There's a lot of clamor about Holbein misrepresenting Anna on purpose in the picture he sent to Henry, that he focused more on the clothing than on the sitter.  I completely do not agree with this.  Yes, the picture does gloss over her smallpox scars a bit but I do not think that Holbein did less work on this painting than he did on any other.  Besides, in those days a good portion of people had the scars.  The woman he captured in that painting is the woman described in letters and texts.  She is simple, plain and sweet looking with a large nose.  This is what the picture captures.  So why all the fuss?  Holbein certainly painted uglier people and no one dared accuse him of misrepresentation in those cases.    

Offline lady

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2006, 04:23:31 PM »
I think he did not feel attracted by her and that was all. Maybe in his mind he had built an Anne of Cleves and later that did not fit with the real Anne, so he felt frustrated and wanted to get rid of her.

Prince_Christopher

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2006, 09:31:47 PM »
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I think he did not feel attracted by her and that was all. Maybe in his mind he had built an Anne of Cleves and later that did not fit with the real Anne, so he felt frustrated and wanted to get rid of her.

I agree.  After the death of Good Queen Jane, Henry was ready for a fresh, young bride.  He had just fathered a son who appeared to be fairly healthy and was ready to father some more.  I think he had a great mental picture built up of Anne and she failed miserably to reach his expectations.  I'm sure he was using his previous wives as an example, all very sophisticated women in their own individual ways, and that appears to be one thing Anne was not, sophisticated.  I think this greatly angered Henry, being presented with a plain, older girl, somewhat on the hefty side, dressed out of fashion, with a thick foreign and unfamiliar accent.  Did she even speak English?  Totally not what Henry had in mind for a wife and queen.  He lost his temper and knowing he could do better, set about divorcing her.  

I've never believed that she could have been as ugly as Henry claimed.  Plain and out of fashion, maybe, but not so hideously revolting that he could not even consider being married to her. (She would not have been sent over if she were).  Didn't he even try to sleep with her?

Too bad Henry didn't take a few days and rationally think the matter over, history might have been totally different....


Offline Kimberly

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2006, 11:24:36 PM »
Don't forget that she committed the unpardonable act of not recognising him and seemingly snubbing him when they first met.
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ilyala

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2006, 01:15:21 AM »
i don't think anna had a rotten life. while, yes, she had to be careful not to get on the king's bad side, i doubt the king cared about her enough to have a long list of things she couldn't do. she had to be quiet, not make a fuss and not defy him openly. and i sincerely don't think it was that hard for her to do that, since i think she was raised to be quiet and not make a fuss. i think she had a quiet country life and as long as she didn't try to get involved in too many stuff (which i doubt she wanted to) she was ok.

bell_the_cat

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2006, 01:50:11 AM »
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i don't think anna had a rotten life. while, yes, she had to be careful not to get on the king's bad side, i doubt the king cared about her enough to have a long list of things she couldn't do. she had to be quiet, not make a fuss and not defy him openly. and i sincerely don't think it was that hard for her to do that, since i think she was raised to be quiet and not make a fuss. i think she had a quiet country life and as long as she didn't try to get involved in too many stuff (which i doubt she wanted to) she was ok.

You may be right that she was OK. For me it would be a rotten life.  ;D

bell_the_cat

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2006, 01:53:38 AM »
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Don't forget that she committed the unpardonable act of not recognising him and seemingly snubbing him when they first met.

Yes - he was in disguise, and presented her with a bunch of flowers or something. Somehow she hadn't been briefed on this, so she thought it was just some old guy pestering her!  ::) It was the worst possible start.

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2006, 10:54:55 AM »
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i don't think anna had a rotten life. while, yes, she had to be careful not to get on the king's bad side, i doubt the king cared about her enough to have a long list of things she couldn't do. she had to be quiet, not make a fuss and not defy him openly. and i sincerely don't think it was that hard for her to do that, since i think she was raised to be quiet and not make a fuss. i think she had a quiet country life and as long as she didn't try to get involved in too many stuff (which i doubt she wanted to) she was ok.

There were a list of conditions she had to agree to before the divorce could be considered: agreement on the nonconsummation of the marriage, she would never leave England and that she must explain everything to her relations abroad without defaming Henry's character.  The never leaving England requirement seems especially harsh given that this woman had only known her mother and then Henry, seperating her from her family and isolating her in a country where, though happy, she was a foreigner who barely spoke the language and knew nothing of court customs was.  If at any time it was suspected Anna was writing to her brother and making trouble, she would have felt the wrath of Henry.  As long as she made a good show of it, Anna was fine.  But Henry was not a man to deal patiently with trouble and what he perceived as defiance of the Royal will.  Yes, things worked out well but it cannot be forgotten that Anna was essentially a royal prisoner and as such subject to the whims of the King who also happened to be her guardian.      

ilyala

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2006, 01:53:51 AM »
you think she wanted to leave england? i sincerely doubt she wanted to go back home... and where else would she go? as for writing letters... you think she wanted to?

ok, maybe for me it would be annoying to be kept somewhere by force but think of it this way: what if you would have stayed there anyway? what if you had no desire to get involved in politics? what if you didn't care enough about your brother to write to him? then these conditions, that seem enforced, can be very easily accepted.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2006, 08:41:07 AM »
I don't think she wanted to leave England either; after all, she coudn't really get married abroad, and life in Cleves wasn't that rosy either. It seems England was her best bet, although she was kept under many restraints there, especially during the lifetime of her ex husband. She had material security at least, and within reason could do as she wished, and find consolation where she could take it, as long as she was quiet and demure, and kept herself in the background; but after all, this was what she had done before in Cleves, and she did have other advantages in England that she did't have where she came from. She may have resented this sometimes, no doubt most people would. But I think she always kept in mind that it could be worse. It seems as if she was a woman who could live quietly in the country, and not be bothered too much by the need to do anything more. She wasn't the type who thrived on plot and counterplot, or she may well not have been living quietly in the country. Beyond that, she no doubt had to spend some time getting used to her new country, and experiencing things she never could have in Cleves.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Henry VIII & Anna of Cleves
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2006, 08:55:47 AM »
I don't think it was a bad life at all, for a woman in 16th century England. Come on, Lady of the Manor (well, several manors actually), her own boss, no particular financial worries, the King's "beloved sister" and welcomed to court for high days and holidays. Plus, she seems to have been generally adored by her step-children. I think she came off very well. ;)
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